Condoleezza Rice plays Hardball

On the Senate apology on lynchings
MATTHEWS:  On Monday, the United States Senate was going to pass a resolution after all these years of opposing any action on lynching laws to apologize for a historic  failure.  Having grown up in Alabama, what's your reaction to that?

RICE:  Well, I'm delighted that they're going to do it.  And I know that people like Senator Allen have been involved in it, a number of Southern senators.  It's a really good thing.

MATTHEWS:  A little late.

RICE:  Well, better late than never on something like this.  I remember as a kid the stories about lynchings—everybody's family had at least one story in that regard.  You know, my grandfather, who ran away from home at 13 because he'd gotten into an altercation with a white man over something that happened with his sister, and he was pretty sure that if he hung around, that's what was going to happen.

MATTHEWS:  So it was real.

RICE:  Yes, it was absolutely real.  And it—but you know what it shows, Chris?  It shows that the great thing about democracy and about American democracy is that even though it has taken us a long time to fully realize the principles and the values that were outlined in the Founding Fathers' documents, those very institutions allow you to overcome these conflicts, these historical problems, within the context.

So in that sense, it is a remarkable and wonderful thing that this has been done in the U.S. Senate.

MATTHEWS:  I was amazed too that Janet Langhart's relative was one of the people lynched.  Amazing.

Let me ask you about this civil-rights case. We grew up with it—you more than I did—in Philadelphia, Mississippi—the three Northern civil rights workers who were maybe buried alive—they were killed; it was brutal.  They're finally re-opening that case.  What do you feel about that?  That happened today?

RICE:  Yes.  I'm not going to comment on the case.  You know, I hope—I'm sure justice will be done.  Again, the institutions have matured to the point that whatever the outcome, I really do believe people will trust it because we now tend to trust in the court system.

On Africa
MATTHEWS:  Let's talk Africa.  Senator Brownback attacks our program with regard to malaria, which I had a few years ago, and said that it's—we're spending too much money on consultancies and not enough on bed nets and basic materials.

RICE:  Yes.  Well, this is a broad program.  It's HIV-AIDS, malaria, tuberculosis.  And we are trying to make sure that the programs work very well.  But we also are using direct means, direct action, if you will, to try to help these countries deal with these problems.

I'll give you an example.  We have now more than 200,000 people under treatment for HIV-AIDS, just since the president's program began.

MATTHEWS:  In Africa?

RICE: Well, in Africa and the countries that are hardest hit, a couple of them in the Caribbean.

But this is a remarkable step toward putting 2 million people under treatment in the next several years.  And a lot of this has to be done, working—which is the good thing—working with the countries themselves to improve their health care-delivery system.  Because, when I was in Uganda, I was noting, learning about how they put people on bicycles and have them go out into the villages, because the villagers can't get all the way into the cities for treatment.

So there are a lot of very clear, direct-action things that are being undertaken here.  And, you know, we're always looking at the balance of planning and consulting versus direct action.  But I have to say, we're doing an awful lot that's direct action.

MATTHEWS:  What do you think about it?  I mean, I was in the Peace Corps over there, and we've been over there a lot, and I think my son's going to be involved over there at some point.  You have a leadership class, a generation of people in their sexually active 20s to 50 years old—they're the ones getting killed by this disease.  So you have kids and grandkids surviving.

What's that going to do to the leadership hopes? Well-educated people, the best-educated in a sense—the best, the brightest of Africa are getting hit by this thing.

RICE:  Well, it's the one of the reasons that I think the president felt he had to act.  He had the feeling, the sense that you're going to lose a whole generation if you weren't very careful here.

You know, in some places, they're looking at infection rates going toward 45 percent.  And so that's why this program is so important.

But, you know, it also takes leadership in Africa.  Today, the president was with five democratically elected presidents in Africa, from places like Ghana and Mozambique and Botswana— places that have had recent democratic elections where they've had peaceful transfers of powers a couple of times.

And those are the leaders that are accountable to their people because of democracy.  Those are the leaders that are speaking out clearly about what has to be done.  Those are the leaders that are embracing the strategy of abstinence and education, recognizing that this is something that you can't sweep under the rug.

There's still too many places in Africa and in other places where it is not considered a part of one's leadership to speak out about this, because it's a sort of taboo subject.  Well, if it's a taboo subject, you're going to continue to lose lives.  And so the president's program, which he discussed again with these leaders here who are here for the African Growth and Opportunity Act, a little mini-summit on that—but he discussed with them again the importance of real leadership.

And we're starting to get it in Africa, and I think it's going to make a difference.

MATTHEWS:  Do you like the program where—in Uganda, where they say abstinence first, have a partner second, condom third?  ABC?  That's the order of...

RICE:  Yes.  Absolutely.  Because there's no reason to be shy about teaching, particularly young people, about the behaviors that are going to stop the spread of AIDS.  We know what those behaviors are.  And so you have to be honest about them.

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