'Scarborough Country' for Feb. 18

Guest: Frank Caldwell, Vince Morris, Jack Burkman, Daniel Lapin, Deborah Lauter, Marilou Braswell, Matt Braswell, Alan Dershowitz, Eleanor Smeal

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  The ivory tower under fire.  The president of Harvard releases a transcript of a controversial meeting, but his critics say it may be doctored. 

Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, no passport required and only common sense allowed. 

Harvard President Larry Summers is fighting for his job after comments put the school in an uproar.  But what happened?  I thought liberals loved free speech. 

And then, did loving Jesus get a cheerleader coach fired from the University of Georgia?  It‘s a battle over the Bible down in Georgia.  We will give you that story.

And back by popular demand, on a freewheeling Friday, it‘s return of Whiplash, the wonder monkey who just won‘t quit.  

ANNOUNCER:  From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all.  Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

SCARBOROUGH:  Welcome to our show. 

Now, Harvard President Larry Summers is in even more hot water tonight.  Faced with barrage of criticism and hoping to quiet his attackers, the president of Harvard released a transcript of a controversial closed-door session last month.  But now his critics say that transcript may be doctored. 

You will remember, Summers, former treasury secretary under Bill Clinton who suggested that women may not be as smart as men when it comes to science and engineering.  Here‘s some of what he said—quote—“My best guess is of what‘s behind all of this is, in the special case of science and engineering, there are issues of intrinsic aptitude."

Well, he didn‘t stop at women.  The transcript also shows that he said this—quote—“To take a diverse set of examples, Catholics are substantially underrepresented in investment banking.  White men are very substantially underrepresented in the National Basketball Association.  And Jews are very substantially underrepresented in farming and in agriculture.”

Now, a growing number of Harvard faculty are calling for Summers to step down.  Is this another case of free speech run amuck, or is it a case of political correctness out of control? 

With me now to talk about it, Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz, who is also the author of “Rights from Wrongs: The Origins of Human Rights in the Experience of Injustice.”  And we have Eleanor Smeal from the Feminist Majority Foundation.

Eleanor, what is wrong with what Larry Summers said about women?  What is wrong with what Larry Summers said about Catholics, what he said about white men in the NBA, and what he said about Jews? 

ELEANOR SMEAL, FEMINIST MAJORITY FOUNDATION:  Well, let‘s look at the women situation. 

That‘s what the flap is really about, is that he is justifying the small numbers of women in tenured faculty positions, especially in science and engineering, at Harvard on a basic—that there‘s an innate difference, that we are not as smart.  I mean, I thought we had passed this a long time ago. 

You have the highest ranking man one of the highest—the most revered institutions in our country questioning women‘s basic aptitude.  And then, when he is not questioning that, he is saying that we can‘t cut the mustard because of family responsibility.

Yet women are cutting the mustard.  We‘re the fastest part of growing small businesses.  We‘re now half the medical students.  We‘re a large part of the graduate students.  But what‘s happening is, in this very still secret, clandestine process of tenured professorships, we are suffering from discrimination.  And he doesn‘t want to face that. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Eleanor, let‘s get Alan‘s response. 

Alan, what do you say about that?  Is Larry Summers discriminating against women?  Is he from the 1950s?  Is he out of touch? 

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, AUTHOR, “RIGHTS FROM WRONGS”:  Well, I don‘t think Eleanor read the speech. 

I mean, if you read the whole speech, it‘s exactly the opposite.  Not only is he not justifying any kind of discrimination.  The whole thrust of the speech was how do you get to the problem.  How do you make sure there are more women on the faculty?  How do you confront the problem that there is de facto differences?  And he went through all of the hypothetical, possible reasons.  And then he said, here‘s one possibility.  I know it‘s going to be controversial.  He said, I hope it‘s wrong.  I hope the science disproves me. 

But, after all, men are different from women, unlike blacks and whites, who are genetically virtually identical.  But we know there are differences.  And, therefore, we ought to look at the genetics and see if it‘s a possibility.  And if it is, he said, we have to do something about it.  We have to overcome it—the exact opposite of trying to justify discrimination.

SMEAL:  Oh...

DERSHOWITZ:  He was trying to get at why there may be discrimination and unjustify it.

The point is, we are having a great debate about this.  That‘s what universities ought to do.  You don‘t fire people for making statements that you believe they are wrong.  I myself believe they are wrong.  I have had no experience that would justify what professor Summers said.  My women students do extraordinarily well.  I gave only two A-pluses this year, and only A-pluses in my blind-graded criminal la, and they both went to women. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  OK.

Alan, I want to ask you this, though.

DERSHOWITZ:  Sure.

SCARBOROUGH:  Because a lot of people are suggesting that support Larry Summers that this isn‘t about women.  This is about the fact that Larry Summers offended a lot of people in 2002 when he told professors on the campus and he told radicals on the campus that he was not going to distance himself and he was not going to distance Harvard from Israel. 

Isn‘t—doesn‘t—isn‘t this about a president that is not politically correct, that‘s not going to be anti-American, that is not going to be anti-Israel, and he is going to say what‘s on his mind? 

DERSHOWITZ:  Well, what he said a couple of years ago was that it‘s perfectly good to criticize Israel.  Every democracy deserves criticism, but, when you single out Israel for special kind of condemnation, by boycotts and divestitures, sometimes, that can amount to anti-Semitism, in effect, if not in intent. 

That created a firestorm, particularly from the hard radical left.  And, you know, you said before that liberals should love free speech.  We do.  It‘s radicals, both on the right and the left, who hate free speech, because they think they know all the answers.  And they think that science can‘t give us any further information because we know what we need to know. 

(CROSSTALK)

DERSHOWITZ:  A lot of the people who are asking for Larry Summers‘ heads, first of all, are not in favor of free speech in other contexts, and, second of all, will never forgive him for some of the statements he made in the past. 

(CROSSTALK)

DERSHOWITZ:  This has become an ideological right-left split in many respects.

(CROSSTALK)

DERSHOWITZ:  Now, I am on the left, but I support Larry Summers because I truly believe in free speech.

SCARBOROUGH:  Eleanor, aren‘t we talking about, Eleanor, about stifling freedom of expression? 

(CROSSTALK)

SMEAL:  No.  This is women professors and scientists who are just aghast at what he said about the aptitude of women in science. 

DERSHOWITZ:  Not all. 

SMEAL:  Well...

DERSHOWITZ:  Many are not.  Many support him. 

(CROSSTALK)

SMEAL:  Let‘s face it.  Many are—the people who questioned it, who went to the mikes and who went to the press afterwards were women scientists, who have been fighting sex discrimination in science.  You know, this is a serious problem. 

DERSHOWITZ:  It is, of course. 

SMEAL:  There is a serious amount of discrimination against women in science, math and engineering.  The data is replete with it.  So, it‘s not just some issue over there.  This is very important.

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, and Larry Summers admitted that, Eleanor, though. 

(CROSSTALK)

DERSHOWITZ:  He didn‘t admit it.  He proclaimed—he proclaimed it. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  And he said, this is the problem.  Let‘s talk about how we can fix it. 

SMEAL:  No.  What he said is—I did read the speech, by the way.

And what he said is that, he has thought about this a long time, and what he really thinks, the order of the problem is, is, one, is that, in high-powered, demanding jobs—and he talked a lot to CEOs and he talked a lot of people in high-powered jobs—that women‘s family responsibilities, they are not willing to sacrifice. 

And then he goes into, their aptitude in science is not particularly -

·         they can‘t cut the mustard.  He essentially puts those at No. 1 and 2. 

He puts discrimination at the bottom.  He should flip it, because women are cutting the mustard. 

DERSHOWITZ:  So argue with him. 

(CROSSTALK)

SMEAL:  We are arguing with him. 

(CROSSTALK)

DERSHOWITZ:  That‘s the point.  But don‘t demand, don‘t ask for his firing. 

Let me tell you what one woman did at that meeting.  She did more to hurt feminism than anything Larry Summers ever did.  She said, when she heard Larry Summers make those statements, she got faint.  She couldn‘t breathe.  She had to walk out. 

If a man ever said that, nobody would give him a pass.  But we do have a double standard.  We allow women to get faint, not to fight back. 

SMEAL:  Oh, come on.  Come on.  Come, come, come.

DERSHOWITZ:  If you read the questions that were put to him, it is shocking, because there were very few hard, intelligent questions put to him.  In an academy, you don‘t get faint.  You don‘t say you can‘t breathe.  You fight back.  That‘s what you do. 

(CROSSTALK)

SMEAL:  They are fighting.  They are fighting back.  The women in science and math are fighting back. 

DERSHOWITZ:  Good. 

SMEAL:  We formed committees.  The two good things that have occurred already is that now there‘s a committee being formed at Harvard on faculty and women, tenured positions, and now another one has been formed on women in science.  So they are fighting back. 

(CROSSTALK)

DERSHOWITZ:  But what if it turns out—what if it turns out that Larry is right?

(CROSSTALK)

SMEAL:  They‘re fighting back.  And it‘s...

SCARBOROUGH:  Eleanor, I want to ask you a question, Eleanor.

SMEAL:  Go ahead.

SCARBOROUGH:  Let‘s move on, because right now, there are some people that were in that meeting that are claiming that Larry Summers released a transcript after he doctored it.  Have you heard that charge? 

SMEAL:  Yes, I have heard the charge.  I have heard that...

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Who have you heard that from? 

SMEAL:  I have heard it from some of the people in the—one professor who was in the meeting feels that it‘s been modified, and I guess one professor...

SCARBOROUGH:  What is her name? 

SMEAL:  ... has gone public on it.  I can‘t say the one who has told me in confidence. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Who is the one that has gone public on it? 

(CROSSTALK)

SMEAL:  A professor has gone public on it, too. 

The key is, is, believe me, it‘s being scrutinized.  There‘s a meeting going on right now.  And they are going line by line.  They feel that it has been modified. 

But even just what has already been released shows that he really feels that women are—have an aptitude problem.  I think that‘s very serious from a person who is setting a standard.  But then let‘s look at his own performance. 

In every year that he has been there, fewer women tenured positions have been handed out.  In fact, in this last year, it was only four out of 32 tenured positions.  So, you have both a problem of attitude and of performance.  And so I think that this questioning is going to continue, and it‘s going to get hotter. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Alan Dershowitz, I will give you the last word.  Eleanor said in pre-interview that she believed that this amounted to an abuse of women.  Respond to that. 

SMEAL:  I didn‘t say that.  I didn‘t say it that way. 

(CROSSTALK)

SMEAL:  I don‘t like being quoted when I‘m right here. 

SCARBOROUGH:  That it led to—that it could lead to the abuse of women. 

SMEAL:  I didn‘t say it that way.

(CROSSTALK)

SMEAL:  And I don‘t know why I should be quoted from some pre-interview when I am sitting right here.  I want to be kept right on the spot of women in science.  This is a serious question, not only at Harvard, but at all the Ivy Leagues.  And I believe you will not have heard the last of this.

SCARBOROUGH:  And it aids a mentality that abuses women. 

DERSHOWITZ:  OK, now, let me make my point.

(CROSSTALK)

SMEAL:  ... say it that way.

DERSHOWITZ:  This is a factual assertion.  It‘s like Galileo saying that the Earth goes around the sun.  It‘s either right or wrong. 

What if it were to turn out that he is fired, God forbid—I think that would be wrong—and 20 years from now, the genetic research proves he is right and that we really have to...

SMEAL:  Oh, come on, Alan.

DERSHOWITZ:  No, no, no, no.  Listen...

(CROSSTALK)

SMEAL:  You don‘t really believe there‘s going to be genetic research saying we are inferior in math and science.

DERSHOWITZ:  No, but there is genetic research—listen to yourself. 

SMEAL:  We have all kinds of genetic research.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Let Alan respond. 

Go ahead, Alan.

DERSHOWITZ:  You think you know everything.  There‘s no room for dissent.  There‘s no room for debate.  You are just like the creationists. 

SMEAL:  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. 

DERSHOWITZ:  You don‘t want to hear the other side. 

(CROSSTALK)

SMEAL:  You know, listen, at the turn of the century, they said women were inferior and couldn‘t be educated.

(CROSSTALK)

DERSHOWITZ:  No, no, no, listen to me for a minute. 

(CROSSTALK)

SMEAL:  I believe women are not inferior, and I will stand on that. 

(CROSSTALK)

DERSHOWITZ:  I have a 15-year-old daughter who is a math whiz.

SMEAL:  That‘s right. 

DERSHOWITZ:  Who is encouraged by this to go to Harvard to show Larry Summers that he is wrong.  Nobody is saying inferior, superior.  That word didn‘t exist. 

What he says is, look, we know women are better at certain things, verbal skills.  There‘s no doubt about that.  The tests show it.  We—there is hypothesis about women in math.  I think it‘s wrong.  I have never seen it.  But it can turn out to be right.  It is a factual scientific inquiry.  This is like the trial of Galileo.

SMEAL:  There‘s been a lot of science on this. 

DERSHOWITZ:  You will look like an absolute fool if he gets fired and it turns out to be right. 

(CROSSTALK)

SMEAL:  Oh, my goodness. 

SCARBOROUGH:  We will know in 20 years. 

Eleanor Smeal and Alan Dershowitz...

SMEAL:  We now know that women can perform in science. 

(CROSSTALK)

DERSHOWITZ:  You know.  I am open-minded. 

(CROSSTALK)

DERSHOWITZ:  And I work at a university where nothing is sacred. 

Everything is open to debate.

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, very good.  You all take it out in the parking lot.  Thanks a lot for being with us tonight, a great debate. 

I will tell you what.  I think Larry Summers is stand-up guy.  I have thought he was a stand-up guy for years.  I think it would be a disgrace if Harvard fired him, because, finally, he has got the guts to tell it like it is. 

Hey, so, coming up next, did Jesus get a cheerleading coach fired?  She says yes.  The school says no.  And they are telling her now she can‘t pray, she can‘t say the word Jesus, and she can‘t have a Bible study. 

And also, are the “Desperate Housewives” divas ready to duke it out? 

Reports of tension on the set.  It‘s getting ugly and I‘ve got issues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  A cheerleading coach is fired for supposedly discriminating against a Jewish cheerleader.  But the university really is discriminating against her for being a Christian.  That‘s what she says.  And we‘re going to be talking to her coming up in a second.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Imagine being fired because you had a Bible study at home or because you said the word Jesus or because you had a pregame prayer. 

Well, that apparently is what is happening to Marilou Braswell, the cheerleading coach of the so-called God Squad.  Last year, University of Georgia told Marilou to stop holding Bible studies in her home, to stop a pregame prayer with the cheerleaders, and to stop using the word Jesus.  Why?  Because a Jewish cheerleader who didn‘t make the team she wanted to make felt Marilou‘s Sunday Bible study group was unfair to her.  She said she felt uncomfortable with the pregame prayer.  Marilou was ultimately fired from the University of Georgia.

And, yesterday, I spoke to a representative for the young lady who made the allegations, Rabbi Daniel Lapin, and Marilou, along with her husband, Matt.  And I asked her if she treated this cheerleader differently just because she was Jewish.  This is what she said. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARILOU BRASWELL, FORMER CHEERLEADING COACH:  No, in no way, shape, or form.  I loved her very much, just like all of my cheerleaders.  When the kids make my team, they are part of my family.  She participated in every pregame prayer we ever had.  It was optional. 

SCARBOROUGH:  But you have been accused of retaliation by this cheerleader.  Why would she accuse you of retaliation if you never did anything? 

MATT BRASWELL, WIFE OF MARILOU:  Marilou was put on probation for supposedly discriminating against Jaclyn Steele.   Jaclyn Steele is the cheerleader in question.  Jaclyn Steele did not make the squad she wanted to make.

And instead of accepting that she perhaps was not good enough to make that squad, she cried foul.  And included in that cry were cries of discrimination. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Marilou, did you...

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Let me ask Marilou.

Did you ever, Marilou, tell her that you didn‘t feel close to her spiritually because she didn‘t attend your Bible studies? 

MARILOU BRASWELL:  No, that‘s not the case.  I felt very close to her. 

I felt very close to all the kids.

And the Bible study is just something that is part of our family and our home and our children.  Some of the kids attended.  Some kids that made the football squad every year never came to anybody Bible study. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, you know, Jackie—we asked Jackie to be on tonight.  She is not on.  But somebody that is here that can speak for the family is Deborah Lauter.

Debra, you have heard what has been said by Marilou.  Do you agree with it?  Was there no retribution, no discrimination against her because she was a Jewish student? 

DEBORAH LAUTER, ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE:  No, I think there‘s a clear case that Jackie was treated differently from the girls who participated in what became known as Coach Braswell‘s God Squad. 

Jackie‘s situation was nothing new.  This has been going on 10 to 12 years.  And no other students had the guts that Jackie did to come forward and complain about it.  This whole program that the coach ran at UGA was permeated with religiosity. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  What is the problem with having a Bible study at home on a Sunday? 

LAUTER:  No problem.  There‘s no problem with the coach doing that. 

It‘s her religious freedom to do it. 

The problem gets there when she is encouraging her own squad, her own students, over whom she has power. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Encouraging them to do what? 

(CROSSTALK)

LAUTER:  To pray for whatever.  It doesn‘t matter if it‘s optional or not.  If it‘s done by a person who is part of the government, and, in this case, University of Georgia is a public institution, that is where we have a problem. 

SCARBOROUGH:  A lot of coaches have pregame prayers.  Should those coaches be fired also? 

LAUTER:  Well, it‘s not—it‘s a question of who is doing the initiating in the leading of the prayers.  If it‘s the students themselves, courts have consistently ruled that that‘s fine.  It‘s when what it‘s the person that is representing...

SCARBOROUGH:  What if it‘s the coach? 

LAUTER:  If it‘s the coach, I think it crosses the line. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Rabbi, I want to bring you in here, OK? 

Is this political correctness run amuck or am I missing something here?  

RABBI DANIEL LAPIN, TOWARD TRADITION:  No, you are not missing anything at all. 

And it‘s a real tragedy that an organization like the ADL, which was originally formed 100 years ago or more to fight defamation of Jews, is now contributing so sadly to the very defamation it was formed to prevent. 

SCARBOROUGH:  It seems to me that, for the ADL to bring this forward, damage their credibility in a lot of other areas.  Here, you have got a cheerleader.  This almost sounds like a middle school mom with a spat with a cheerleader coach. 

You‘ve got the ADL getting involved, a once proud organization getting involved in a case where the young woman that didn‘t make the cheerleading squad. 

LAPIN:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Had no protest with this woman for being a Christian, for having Bible studies in her home until she didn‘t make the squad.  What do you say to that? 

LAPIN:  No.  With due respect to Deborah from the ADL, who said that previous students didn‘t have the guts to complain, no, Deborah.  It‘s not that they didn‘t have the guts.  They had the decency to know that freedom of belief in America‘s Constitution does not apply only to Jews.  It applies to Christians as well. 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCARBOROUGH:  Back with me tonight from Atlanta is Deborah Lauter. 

She is, again, from the Anti-Defamation League. 

Deborah, thanks for being back with us tonight.

I am going to repeat what I said to the rabbi earlier.  And that is that I think this damages your organization‘s credibility at a time where anti-Semitism—and I have said this on the air time and time again—anti-Semitism in Europe and in America is at an all-time high, or at least since World War II, since Hitler was killed in Nazi Germany, knocked down.  And yet you all are going after cheerleading squads at the University of Georgia.  Isn‘t this a step down for your organization? 

LAUTER:  No, it‘s not.  It‘s very consistent. 

Listen, ADL gets involved with cases like this that may seem trivial on the surface, but they go to the very fundamentals of our democracy.  Anti-Defamation League is not anti-religion.  We don‘t get involved in these cases lightly.  It‘s because we care so deeply about religious liberty in this country. 

Jews have done well in this country precisely because there‘s been church-state separation.  I do agree with Rabbi Lapin that...

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Go ahead.

LAUTER:  That when he said earlier, he said earlier that this was not a Jewish-vs.-Christian case.  That is absolutely true. 

I can tell you, unequivocally, after this case broke, we got e-mails and letters from other cheerleaders.  One in particular said, “Coach Braswell made me feel like I was going to go to hell if I didn‘t participate in Bible study, and I‘m a Christian.”

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  But, Deborah, here‘s the deal, though.  You say you are for religious freedom, your group is for religious freedom.

This lady was told she can‘t say the word Jesus; she can‘t hold Bible studies at home; she can‘t have pregame prayers.  Isn‘t that driving religion that you claim that your group supports just completely...

(CROSSTALK)

LAUTER:  No, absolutely not.

SCARBOROUGH:  It‘s ridiculous.  This sounds like communist China. 

Don‘t have a Bible study at home. 

LAUTER:  No, absolutely not. 

When she is doing it under the auspices of a public university.  She can go work at a private institution and have all the religious freedom.  She can hold those Bible studies with her friends and her family.  She just can‘t influence when she is working for UGA. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, the University of Georgia wouldn‘t come on the show, because the case is still locked in the courts.

But officials did tell us that Marilou was terminated for—quote—

“discourteous and disruptive behavior and for violating the right of a student and retaliation against a student, not her religious beliefs,” despite the fact University of Georgia told her not to say the word Jesus, not to have a Bible study at home, and not to pray. 

Are we in communist China or are we in Georgia?  Hard to tell. 

Anyway, thanks, Deborah, for being with us. 

And coming up next, Hillary Clinton is looking for love in all the wrong places, looking for potential voters wherever she can find them.  Now she wants ex-felons to be allowed to vote.  And a lot of cameramen at MSNBC are happy. 

And, later, talking about monkeying around, look at the guy go.  We are going to see him a little bit later. 

Plus, a big video surprise that my staff won‘t even let me see. 

Don‘t go away.  I‘ve heard it‘s an all-time classic.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Coming up next, rodeo monkeys, voting felons and desperate diva housewives in a catfight in a video shoot for “Vanity Fair.”  All that and much more coming up. 

But, first, let‘s get the latest news that you and your family have to know. 

(NEWS BREAK)

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

Content and programming copyright 2005 MSNBC.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.  Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant, Inc. ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user‘s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon MSNBC and Voxant, Inc.‘s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.