>>>
florida pastor
terry jones
who burned the
koran
last month and blamed for inciting violence in
afghanistan
, 20 were killed, was in court in michigan today and still in court fighting for permission to protest what he says is
muslim law
at a mosque there. here is part of jones'
closing argument
.
>>
i am protesting a radical element of islam.
>>
we are protesting a strictly islamic problem. sharia or jihad but we are not accusing that mosque or not accusing the people of
dearborn
and we are not accusing all
muslims
. we are speaking out against that particular aspect that we all agree is -- is real.
>>
dearborn
is not operating under
sharia law
and jones' insistence at demonstrating at the
islamic center of america
promoted an
open letter
to be written to the pastor. saying, quote. well, mayor jack o'reilly joins us now as well as the director of the
moral courage
project up in new york at nyu and author of the book "ala, liberty, and love." it's coming out in june. mayor, thank you for joining us. mr. mayor, that is the most amazing defense of a city. you basically said, hey, look, we have a
combat zone
in this city and have
adult entertainment
going on here. how could we be under strict
islamic law
? how did you find your way into that defense? that is something i clearly believe you, mayor.
>>
it's about the constitution. we don't pick and choose. we follow the law. when people have a legitimate licenses, they carry out legitimate businesses. and that is what i said. you know, we have
dearborn
sausage when is a company, right now, at easter, is selling more spiral sliced hams than they can produce. the whole silly notion. he really is way off the mark.
>>
let me go to isa on this. it does have something of a game going on here. not just burning the
koran
and stuff like that. he doesn't like the
koran
. he wants to prove that he can spark violence in the
islamic world
which he proved the other day when those 20 people were killed, i believe, in
afghanistan
, because he wanted to do it. what is this all about from your perspective as an expert? what is going on? this weird you get one crazy westerner saying i can tick off the easterner on the other side of the world to the point they will kill some other westerners and prove my point which is? go ahead. your thought.
>>
chris
, it will take a psychotherapist to figure out what his real point is and notice i insert the word real. you're absolutely right to suggest that this is a game going on. i said the last time i was on your show talking about this very issue that this is all about politics and what his
end game
actually is. we don't yet know. but may i just suggest here that i'm with the aclu in michigan on this one, that his
hate speech
ought to be impated not with censorship but with more speech and let me quickly tell you why.
chris
, as the demographics of this country changes, we will see more and more situations in which rights conflict. and so we constantly have to be asking the question what is the greatest good for the greatest number. at the
end of the day
, freedom is the greatest good for the greatest number because even offended
muslims
still benefit from
freedom of assembly
and they are exercising this as we are
going live
right now in holding a counterprotest to
terry jones
'. so i say that they are using freedom and his freedom cannot be segregated from theirs. it's an invisible hold.
>>
your response to that, mr. mayor.
>>
yeah. the fact is i wish aclu and others would come and follow the facts in
dearborn
. as mayor, i created permit free zones. these are places where anyone on the
spur of the moment
without any prior permission can come and have an event, give a voice to their concerns, do anything. we're so constitutionally friendly, it's not even funny. the problem is that the site that he has selected does not allow -- there is absolutely no logistical way, given the property itself that you can carry out the kind of event he planned to carry out. it's about balancing rights which is the job of government all the time. we have competing rights and we have to balance them.
>>
mayor o'reilly --
>>
i'm sorry. he always has had an opportunity to have an event and that is why we have an event going on right now with over -- when i left, almost 400 to 5500 people were gathered at an alternative site and doing what they do best, exercising their right.
>>
mayor o'reilly, that is a very
logical argument
and i truly embrace your point about wanting to and having to balance rights. but the reality is that we are all humans and at the
end of the day
, it's not just logic that drives us, it's also emotions. therefore, let me just point out that each the
police chief
of
dearborn
has testified in court today that his worries about
public safety
are based, in part, on his own fears. he has actually said he has no evidence that
terry jones
will take it too far. it's just fear that the
police chief
is operating on.
chris
, let me say this much more.
>>
no,
chris
. that is --
>>
we are so good at calling out right wingers when they operate on fear. why the
double standard
here.
>>
there is no
double standard
.
>>
people died the last time this guy did his number.
>>
i'm sorry.
>>
we must also --
>>
you don't have --
>>
extremists.
>>
mayor, your thoughts. mayor, first.
>>
i want to say,
chris
, she's not on the ground in our community. yes, the chief was talking but you have to look at the whole context of what he was talking about. what we know is they did a petition. now we had
westboro church
here at the same site. we didn't have to do anything because three people showed up and they didn't hold them accountable because it didn't present any kind of danger or problem for anyone. but this one was different.
>>
group that demonstrates against any funeral of a military person because they don't like
gay rights
basically. the soldier in that case was not a gay person but used it as an opportunity for a platform.
>>
they don't like generally, i like th e first amendment. the lights go o the bells go off all over the world the minute they hear that somebody -- the terrible term on the
koran
somewhere. people will escalate. whatever steps they are, how gross or un-american they are can achieve what they want. this pastor is smart enough to know what he says or burns a
koran
, people die and he made his point. what do we do with these cases under the first amendment?
>>
no
magic bullet
to this one. if there was we wouldn't be having this discussion, let alone, a debate. i think the
best response
to these sorts of absurdities is, indeed, love. i know that is weird to say on
cable television
.
>>
it didn't work when he did that.
>>
hold on a second.
>>
got murder.
>>
imagine -- imagine
muslim americans
, okay? as they are doing right now, coming to massive counterrallies with signs that say allah loves
terry jones
and so do i. what that does is, it takes the bite out of the bigotry and not on the part of
terry jones
and the bite out of the bigotry of muslim extremists.
>>
the trouble is we have stonings going on in
afghanistan
and hard to believe that love is going to conquer this.
>>
i'm talking about america, not
afghanistan
, we're talking about america.
>>
what
terry jones
did in his little patch down in florida caused 20 people to get killed over in
afghanistan
. is there a
global community
and it's getting very close in. mayor, one second. all we god.
>>
another.
>>
give me ten seconds.
>>
okay. there is a real issue here. in
dearborn
, it wasn't just
muslims
coming together. all of our face came together yesterday and we expressed the same message for our whole
greater detroit
and that was that islam is a faith that is part of our greater faith community and every one of our religious leaders embraced the fact that their congregations were sold the desecration of any
holy book
is gone and we have to all respect and treat each other as a part of this community.
>>
thank you, mayor. some people don't want peace. appreciate your values here. irshad, we live in a world that is
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