'Meet the Press' transcript for Sept. 27, 2009

MR. GREGORY:  And former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice saying this week if you abandon Afghanistan, you'll have another 9/11 in the U.S.

PRES. CLINTON:  Well, I think, you know, that's--it's, it's impossible to know that with certainty, because our people have done such a good job now, even going back to the time that I was president, of working with the intelligence and law enforcement and money tracking people around the world that we've prevented far, far more attacks in America and in the rest of the world than have occurred.  But I'd--I would agree with her to the extent that if they have freedom of movement in Afghanistan it, it will increase by some significant factor the likelihood that they will attack successfully if not in the United States, somewhere else against people that we consider our allies and that we have to be concerned about.

MR. GREGORY:  Let me talk about the Clinton Global Initiative, fifth annual, and what you've achieved here.  The focus on girls and women, on their economic empowerment around the world, but also on the direct threats that they face.  I had an opportunity to go to one of the sessions this week, one of the dinners, and from a U.N. report, this is a startling fact:  At least one out of every three women around the world has been beaten, coerced into sex or otherwise abused in her lifetime, with her abuser usually someone known to her.  And the concern is that that fact, that problem, is not getting better.

PRES. CLINTON:  Well, I agree with that.  And what we wanted to do here was to focus on both the positive things that need to be done in education and access to the workplace, in health care, care for the children, and in the negative things we need to stop, including violence against women.  You'd be amazed how many of the young women who work with our foundation in countries around the world as advocates, trying to get people to exercise prevention and not communicate HIV and AIDS, you'd be amazed how many of them became HIV positive because they were raped going to and from school.  So we have to talk about that.  And there's this whole problem of trafficking, which has gotten worse in the economic downturn, which disproportionately affects young women, but also affects some young men who are sold into bondage, into basically servitude for indebted work that they can often never escape from.

MR. GREGORY:  This initiative's premised on your own frustration as president with a lot of talking and not a lot of action.

PRES. CLINTON:  Yes.

MR. GREGORY:  What is it that you've been able to measure in terms of the progress from CGI?

PRES. CLINTON:  Well, we know that in areas of health, education, better environment through fighting climate change and improving access to clean water, and increasing people's livelihoods primarily through microcredit and modest investments in agriculture and other things, that 200 million people in 150 countries have had an improvement in their quality of life; 48 million people with access to better health care, 33 million people with access to various kinds of educational advances, millions and millions of people as entrepreneurs, getting microcredit loans.  We can measure all that.  But we also know that in doing this we've helped to strengthen what's called the civil society movement around the world; that is we, we help to partner with governments, philanthropists, big foundations like the Gates Foundation and small nongovernmental groups all across the world to create more citizen power.  That's a--and it's really important in the women's and girls' issues. Now, we, we believe that by doing this we're not only doing these specific things--yes, here are 200 million people whose lives are better off--but we're creating a sense of empowerment, a sense that citizenship in the 21st century requires more than paying your taxes and voting and occasionally running for office.  That even if you're never in political office, you have political responsibilities.  You can make your society stronger and better.

MR. GREGORY:  Let's talk about some of the big challenges back home for President Obama.  And on health care, as this debate rolls through, you remember it well, do you think the president has leveled with the American people on this fact, that Americans are going to have to pay higher taxes if they want healthcare reform?

PRES. CLINTON:  Well, I think he's made it clear that it costs some money to insure more people.  But--and I have no criticism of what he's done.  He's been at a terrible disadvantage in that--in the lawmaking phase.  Remember what old Mark Twain said:  There are two things nobody should ever have to watch being made, sausage and laws.  And he has a better Congress than I did, and the--he doesn't have a committee chairman that I had, demanding that he present a bill.  So he said, "OK, I'll let you do develop the bill." Well, while they're developing the bill he set out certain principles, and he is vulnerable to whatever anybody wants to say about any of the bills running through Congress, whether that's his position or not.

He has said it's going to take years to fully reform the system.  I don't accept the fact that we have to charge a lot more money to cover the 100--the, the 46 million people that aren't covered.  What he's saying is if we have the right preventive and primary care, if we start charging for comprehensive care in the chronic cases, 10 percent of the cases take up two-thirds of the medical expenses, and if we do more on problems like childhood obesity, that we can, to use the parlance that's popular in Washington, bend the cost curve and eventually reconcile this so our costs will be closer to our competitors and so we can cover everybody.

Now, let me just say, I, I, I've had several big business leaders, to me privately express extreme support for passing any kind of bill that starts this progress, because they say this is killing America economically.  Look what's happened in the last several years, corporate profits are up, the cost of health care's gone up three times the rate of inflation and wages are flat. Median income before the economic collapse, after inflation, was $2,000 a year lower than it was the day I left office.  Why?  Because all the things that could've--first, we haven't created enough jobs.  But secondly, all the money that could've gone to wage increases is going to pay the employer portion of employees' health insurance.  So I don't think it's fair to say that we're going to--that the American people are going to have to pay a lot more to cover everybody.  What, what the American people will pay a little more for in the short run, I think, is security.  That is, everybody who's got health insurance today could be cut out by--it often happens in America.

MR. GREGORY:  But security could come and would come with additional taxes.

PRES. CLINTON:  Well, yes, he'll have to raise some more money in the short run partly because of the way the Congressional Budget Office scores this. But if they string this coverage out, as he proposed to do in his speech, over four years, then I think the revenues should be quite modest.

MR. GREGORY:  But let me ask you a broader question.  In 1996 you declared the era of big government over.  Well, the era of big government being over appears to be over in and of itself, whether it's the stimulus, whether it's bailouts, financial regulation or this issue of health care.  Do you think the president's done a good enough job selling government as the solution?

PRES. CLINTON:  I think that it doesn't matter how hard he sells, the people have to see the results.  And the president is suffering now from what is, is something totally beyond his control.  He's really got a bind in this recession, because when you come out of a recession, even a, a milder one than we've been through, what normally happens is the stock market goes up six months, the GDP numbers go up six months, then after a year people start hiring back.  It's rational but painful.  So what I think we need here is a strategy both for the country and for the administration to try to jump-start the jobs.  The only strategy we have is to move aggressively now to do much more than we've been doing in energy efficiency.  That helps us meet our climate change responsibilities and it creates more jobs in less time for less money than any other strategy available to the government.

MR. GREGORY:  I know you and President Obama, when you get together, as you did recently, you talk a lot about the economy.  Has it come up yet where he says, "Jeez, Mr. President, so what happens when you're nine months into the job and the honeymoon is over?'

PRES. CLINTON:  Well, we laughed about it.  I think he gets that.  And, you know, that's what you--a president has to be prepared to spend political capital.  And you, you get hired to win for the country, not to be popular today.  I, I always tell everybody, any poll is a picture of an unfinished horse race except the Election Day polls.  And so I, I wouldn't worry that--too much about it.  I think there's still a lot of goodwill for him. The American people know he is highly intelligent, they know he's working his heart out, they know he's put together a good team, they know he's thinking about the right things.  Their ambivalence, their uncertainty reflects, more than anything else, the--not only the stirring up in the Republican opposition, but the real troubles average Americans are having in their own lives.  Keep in mind, health care's complicated, can be misrepresented, it's personal, it can spark fear, it's expensive, and the people who have got the money want to keep it.  So the change is hard.  But I think we're going to get a healthcare bill, and I think he can then swing into the energy and I think he'll get an energy bill.  I think he's going to succeed.

MR. GREGORY:  Your wife famously talked about the vast right wing conspiracy targeting you.  As you look at this opposition on the right to President Obama, is it still there?

PRES. CLINTON:  Oh, you bet.  Sure it is.  It's not as strong as it was, because America's changed demographically, but it's as virulent as it was.  I mean, they're saying things about him--you know, it's like when they accused me of murder and all that stuff they did.  He--but it's not really good for the Republicans and the country, what's going on now.  I mean, they may be hurting President Obama.  They can take his numbers down, they can run his opposition up.  But fundamentally, he and his team have a positive agenda for America.  Their agenda seems to be wanting him to fail, and that's not a prescription for a good America.  We actually need a credible debate about what's the right balance between continuing to expand the economy through stimulus and beginning to move back to fiscal balance.  We need a credible debate about what's the best way to get to universal coverage.

Now, the one Republican who's come up with a good idea is Senator Snowe.  She deserves a lot of credit for saying when we did this Medicare prescription drug bill, instead of giving the government the power to negotiate for lower prices we gave the drug companies a chance to offer them, but we held the power in reserve.  And if there was any state in America where there was no competition, you could do it.  So let's do that for health care.  That's a good idea.  That's, that's the kind of debate the country needs, and I hope that the Republicans will come forward with it.  These...

MR. GREGORY:  But do you worry about a repeat of '94 politically?

PRES. CLINTON:  It, it--there's no way they can make it that bad, for several reasons.  Number one, the country is more diverse and more interested in positive action.  Number two, they've seen this movie before, because they had eight years under President Bush when the Republicans finally had the whole government, and they know the results were bad.  And number three, the Democrats haven't taken on the gun lobby like I did, and they took 15 out of our members out.  So I don't think it'll be--whatever happens, it'll be manageable for the president.

MR. GREGORY:  Before you go, Mr. President, you left the presidency but you've hardly had a low profile, with the Clinton Global Initiative and other things.  Do you think about a return to either public office or another form of public life?

PRES. CLINTON:  No.  That's Hillary's job now.  I--we've totally switched roles.  She spent most of her life in the nongovernmental sector, and that's what I do now.  I love what I do now.  And while I can't touch as many lives and as many things as I did as president, the things I do focus on we can have a huge impact.  And I'm trying to convince people that all of us need to be doing the kind of thing I'm doing now.  I think 21st century citizenship is going to be exciting, and I like being a part of it.

MR. GREGORY:  Will she run for president again then?

PRES. CLINTON:  That's up to her.  I don't--you know, we're not getting any younger.  But I'm proud of what she's doing now.  I think she's doing a good job and I'm honored that--I think it's pretty thrilling that she and the president have established the relationship they have.  And it's a good argument for reconciliation and remembering the big things for all the rest of us.

MR. GREGORY:  Mr. President, thank you.

PRES. CLINTON:  Thank you.

MR. GREGORY:  Joining us now to discuss the way forward on both Iran and Afghanistan, a key Democratic member of the Senate Foreign Relations and Armed Services Committees, Jim Webb of Virginia; and the Republican whip of the Senate, Jon Kyl of Arizona.

Welcome to both of you.

SEN. JON KYL (R-AZ):  Thank you.

MR. GREGORY:  Senator Kyl, let me start with you.  The news overnight, the Iranians test-firing missiles in, in the wake of these developments this week on an underground enrichment facility.  Has Iran now upped the ante with the United States in this confrontation?

SEN. KYL:  I don't know that I'd put it that way, though it always seems that they can't wait to, to show us that they have the capability of moving forward with their missile program or their nuclear program at the very time that we're trying to get them to talk.  And I think it illustrates the fact that at a certain point talking is counterproductive rather than productive, because time it not on our side.  All the Iranians need is time to develop their nuclear weaponry and, and their missiles.  And as a result of that, at some point you have to say that the talk has to stop and solid action in the form of sanctions or some other way of stopping them is necessary.

MR. GREGORY:  Senator Webb, this issue of a nuclear program, is it in your mind now clear as day that the Iranians are trying to build nuclear weapons?

SEN. JIM WEBB (D-VA):  I think what, what we have right now is a way--a process in place where we can really start to explore with the Iranians what their intentions are.  This is the, the value of opening up the dialogue in, in the way we're going to see in, in the coming week.  And I, I have two very important concerns right now with respect to the Iranian situation and also to others.  The first is we're going to, we're going to face this situation with other countries in the terms of nuclear power proliferation around the world, where we're going to be seeing these sorts of challenges.  And the other is it's very important now to get the international community writ large involved in tightening the, the way that we talk to countries like Iran about the situation.  And China is key.  We've seen European nations step forward here. You know, this was--we say this was United States and its allies, but it was basically the United States, the UK and France, with Germany coming in later. We had a good, strong statement from Russia for the first time, with the, the hint that they might agree with sanctions.  But China, as always, has been neutral.  And China's become Iran's greatest trading partner.  They have been giving Iran approximately 30 percent of the gasoline that it's been receiving right now through shell companies.  And let's not forget that China enabled Pakistan to become a nuclear power.

MR. GREGORY:  But do you think Iran is building weapons?

SEN. WEBB:  I think we have...

MR. GREGORY:  Isn't that a key question now?

SEN. WEBB:  I think we have the formula through which we can now fully explore that issue.  I'm not going to sit here in the United States Senate and make that judgment.  But we do have the process in place where we can fully explore that issue in a way that will hold them publicly accountable.

MR. GREGORY:  Well, Senator Kyl, is there any doubt in your mind that they're building weapons?

SEN. KYL:  No.  I, I--well, they're trying to build a nuclear weapon.  They first of all have to get he fuel to do it.  And that's--it's very clear that they are trying to make that fuel.  And it's also clear that they are getting closer to the delivery capability, putting that nuclear weapon on top of a missile that could either reach Europe or eventually a place like the United States.  It's clear what their intention is.  And the question is, how do you get in there to see fully what they're doing and find a way to stop it? Without international support, it's very hard.  But we haven't even exhausted the possibilities for unilateral U.S. sanctions that could also squeeze that leadership to the point that they might--I mean, what we're trying to do here eventually is to get a regime change with a group of people in there that are more representative of the Iranian people, who we really can talk with in a way that might end up with a good result.  I think it's very difficult to do that with the current leadership and especially the elected president.

MR. GREGORY:  Well, Senator Webb, that's an important point.  What should the American people be prepared for here in terms of a confrontation with Iran? Is it sanctions, or is it military action?

SEN. WEBB:  Well, I don't think--as people have said and, and I agree with, you don't take any of options off the table.  But we also shouldn't be playing "what if" here sitting on the outside, as, as Ronald Reagan always famously said.  We have a process now.  I believe that Russia coming forward for the first time now and saying that in concept they are not opposed to the idea of sanctions is a, is a key indicator that we're, we're starting to get true international consensus.  But again, China needs to be much more overt in its--assuming its role as an international power.  Not just in the Iranian situation; you see it in many other places, such as Burma, where I was just dealing with a very similar situation in terms of unilateral sanctions on one side, you know, European countries and the United States, with China becoming a principal trading partner.

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