'Meet the Press' transcript for May 24, 2009

MR. DAVID GREGORY:  Our issues today:  America's fight against terrorism, a debate about the past...

(Videotape)

PRES. BARACK OBAMA:  All too often our government trims facts and evidence to fit ideological predispositions.

(End videotape)

MR. GREGORY:  ...and the future.

(Videotape)

FMR. VICE PRES. DICK CHENEY:  In the fight against terrorism there is no middle ground, and half-measures keep you half-exposed.

(End videotape)

MR. GREGORY:  President Obama looks for middle ground in the fight against America's enemies, but is it really a new course or an approach much closer to his predecessor's than he is willing to admit?  On the controversial issue of closing the prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where will the detainees go?  And have members of the president's party deserted him on a key national security decision?  This morning, an exclusive debate:  with us, the Senate Assistant Majority Leader Dick Durbin of Illinois and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich.  Then our roundtable weighs in on the Obama/Cheney national security debate and more, including where the Obama agenda goes from here as the summer begins, a Supreme Court nominee, healthcare reform, the economy and energy. With us, editor of the National Review, Rich Lowry; host of NPR's "All Things Considered," Michele Norris; columnist with The Washington Post Gene Robinson; and NBC's chief White House correspondent and political director, Chuck Todd.

But first, the politics of national security, and we are joined by former House Speaker Newt Gingrich and the Assistant Senate Majority Leader Dick Durbin.

Welcome, both of you, back to MEET THE PRESS.  So on day two of the Obama administration, the president shuts down Guantanamo Bay, the prison there, says it'll be closed within a year, but he doesn't really have a plan for how he's going to do it.  And of course this week the debate bursts into the open over the issue of what's going to happen to these detainees who are still at Guantanamo once the prison is closed.  Vice President Cheney waded into this debate this week during a speech.  This is what he said.

(Videotape, Thursday)

FMR. VICE PRES. CHENEY:  I think the president will find, upon reflection, that to bring the worst of the worst terrorists inside the United States would be cause for great danger and regret in the years to come.

(End videotape)

MR. GREGORY:  And here is Senator Majority Leader Harry Reid.  He says, "What we don't want is them [to] be put in prisons in the United States.  We don't want them around the United States."

Senator Durbin, strange bedfellows, Cheney and Reid, in lockstep on this issue.

SEN. DICK DURBIN, (D-IL):  I think that President Obama made it clear in his speech at the National Archives that he is going to face this issue squarely and resolve it fairly.  And he said, I think very clearly, that we're not going to allow anyone who is dangerous to come to the United States.  Now, let me just say this, I know what Vice President Cheney said.  But if you want an insight into his analysis of intelligence and national security, you should always remember four words:  weapons of mass destruction.  That was a bogus fear tactic used by Vice President Cheney years ago which led us into a war that has cost us 4,283 American lives, we should recall on this Memorial Day weekend, added a trillion dollars to the national debt and took the eye off of capturing Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda.

MR. GREGORY:  But, Senator Durbin, in this case you have not just Vice President Cheney, but the majority leader of the Senate saying, "No, we don't want these detainees to come into prisons in the United States."

SEN. DURBIN:  Now that President Obama has made it clear what his plan is, he'll bring that to Congress.  We have successfully tried terrorists in the United States.  As I sit here today, we have 347 convicted terrorists secure in our incarceration in our facilities.  We know that they can be tried and held safely.  I'm sure the president will be able to work this out with members of Congress.

MR. GREGORY:  Speaker Gingrich:

FMR. REP. NEWT GINGRCH, (R-GA):  Well, let, let me start with, first of all, it was Secretary of State Colin Powell who also talked about weapons of mass destruction, so this is not a Cheney problem.  The fact is every member of the American government senior leadership believed in the intelligence they were getting at the time.  And the question comes right down to, as Vice President Cheney said this week, what's your highest priority?  Is it to defend America and protect American lives, or is it to find some way to defend terrorists and to get terrorists involved in the criminal justice system?  I can't imagine--given the fact, for example, that we just picked up four terrorists in New York who had been converted in prison, I can't imagine--the director of the FBI has said don't put these terrorists in prisons because there'll be an active threat to convert other people.  The fact is these, these terrorists--we're now down to the worst of the worst.  These are the--the Bush administration released over 500 people.  One out of every seven actually went back to war against us and is out actively trying to kill Americans today.  So I would be very cautious.  I think the president made a very big mistake.  It was a campaign promise, it is not a national security plan.  I think, frankly, they should keep Guantanamo open.  Whatever the, whatever things that are wrong at Guantanamo they would fix by moving them to somewhere else, fix them at Guantanamo.

MR. GREGORY:  How long should Gitmo remain open?

REP. GINGRICH:  Until the war is over.

MR. GREGORY:  When is that?

REP. GINGRICH:  We'll--when the terrorists disappear.  I mean, you're faced with...

MR. GREGORY:  Well, you're talking about a pretty long-term proposition here.

REP. GINGRICH:  Yes, because this is a long-term proposition.  You have people out there today who want to kill Americans, who would like to set off a nuclear weapon in an American city, who would like to set off a truck bomb down the street from where we are right now.  These folks are serious. They're, they're still there.  They're fighting in Pakistan right now, they're fighting in Iraq right now.  We just arrested four people in New York City last week.  What do you do with somebody who's a dedicated, religiously-motivated terrorist?  You had better keep them locked up.

MR. GREGORY:  But, Senator, what about this issue of conversion in prison? What about the FBI director saying that there are concerns if you bring some of these figures into U.S. prisons?

SEN. DURBIN:  Just remember that President Bush called for the closing of Guantanamo; President Obama did the same, as did Senator McCain in the last campaign.  And I also want to remind the former speaker that Major Matthew Alexander, who has actually interrogated al-Qaeda suspects in Iraq, attributes half of the deaths of Americans in Iraq to the detention abuses at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.  Continuing Guantanamo, unfortunately, makes our troops less safe.  The bottom line as I see it is Guantanamo should close in an orderly way.  President Obama announced that last Thursday.  We understand that at the end of the day there will be some of these people, I don't know the exact number, who will be too dangerous to be released, and President Obama said he would work with Congress and the courts to detain them in a humane, constitutional and legal way.

MR. GREGORY:  Let me pick--I want to pick up on a point here, and this is another argument that the president made with regard to keeping the prison at Guantanamo Bay open, and the, the stain on the U.S. image because of that. This is what he said.

(Videotape)

PRES. OBAMA:  Instead of serving as a tool to counter terrorism, Guantanamo became a symbol that helped al-Qaeda recruit terrorists to its cause.  Indeed, the existence of Guantanamo likely created more terrorists around the world than it ever detained.

(End videotape)

MR. GREGORY:  Senator Durbin, where's the evidence to support that claim?

SEN. DURBIN:  I just gave it to you:  Major Matthew Alexander, who interrogated the al-Qaeda suspects in Iraq.  And it was his conclusion that half of them had been recruited and were fighting, trying to kill Americans because of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.  Are we going to ignore this?  The fact is that closing Guantanamo, that announcement by the president, as well as abandoning torture techniques and so-called enhanced interrogation, finally said to the rest of the world that it's a new day.  Join us in a new approach to keeping this world and America safe.  I think it was a break from the past we desperately needed.  And to turn around now and to take the approach that Mr. Limbaugh has suggested, that Newt Gingrich has suggested, Vice President Cheney, would put us back in that same terrible position where our troops will be less safe by continuing Guantanamo.

REP. GINGRICH:  Let me say, first of all, there were over 550,000 troops who served in Iraq.  I'm sure you can find one to agree with you.  The fact is the 3,100 Americans who were killed on 9/11 were killed before there was a Guantanamo.  The recruits who were going into Iraq were going into Iraq long before Guantanamo was, was a serious factor.  The people fighting today in Pakistan are fighting Pakistanis.  The people--the Taliban who's fighting in Afghanistan, they're not running around using Guantanamo.  They're running around using the existence of America.  One of the terrorists in Guantanamo recently threw his television down and broke it because he had a picture of a woman with bare arms.  I think we are kidding ourselves about who these terrorists are and we're kidding ourselves about the power of this. Guantanamo matters because in America and Europe the left has decided the matter.  So let's build a brand-new facility.  Tell me how it will be different from Guantanamo and tell me how many weeks it would take before it became the new symbol that was attacked because you're still going to be holding people in prison, they're still going to be isolated.  You have to keep them isolated.  These are bad people who want to destroy America, and if they're not isolated they're going to actively engage in terrorist planning. The World Trade Center bombing in 1993 was in part planned from Attica prison by a terrorist that we had locked up in Attica who was sending information out by a helper.

MR. GREGORY:  Senator Durbin, isn't it also an issue that the 1993 bombing happened, there was no Guantanamo Bay prison.  In other words, terrorists who want to attack America are going to find a rationale.  They will find a symbol of America to attack.

SEN. DURBIN:  Guantanamo is not the only reason that inspires terrorism around the world against the United States.  But let's be honest about it, since 9/11 we have seen al-Qaeda become a global franchise.  And their recruitment tool, the one that they're using repeatedly, is the detention techniques used by the United States at specifically Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.  What I don't understand from the speaker, if he thinks we shouldn't incarcerate convicted terrorists in the United States for fear that they might continue to be dangerous, what are we going to do with them?  What would you have us do with the 347 convicted terrorists now in prison in the United States?

More from NBC News broadcasts Struggling species gets helping hand Astronaut over the moon for daughter’s birth   Panel examines cancer screening confusion Report: Vet aid program riddled with fraud Knox speaks out, calls victim a ‘friend’ McCain says he enjoyed Palin’s book   Polluters, watch out for 'eco-cops'   Follow on Twitter: Making a Difference

MORE FROM MEET THE PRESS

Meet the Press Section Front

Nov. 22: Senate roundtable, Brinker, Snyderman Nov. 15: Clinton, Duncan, Gingrich, Sharpton Nov. 8: Casey, Barbour, Rendell, roundtable, Brokaw Nov. 1: Tim Geithner, David Plouffe, roundtable Oct. 25: Cornyn, Schumer, Burnett, Sorkin, roundtable Oct. 18: Jarrett, Dodd, Kyl, Shriver, Podesta Oct. 11: Levin, Graham, McCaffrey, Myers, roundtable Oct. 4: Ambassador Susan Rice, roundtable Sept. 27: Bill Clinton, Paterson, Kyl, Webb Sept. 20: President Obama, Sen. Graham, Rep. Boehner, roundtable Meet the Press Section Front   Add Meet the Press headlines to your news reader: