'Meet the Press' transcript for May 17, 2009

MR. DAVID GREGORY: Our issues this Sunday: warring parties. Democrats and Republicans at odds over the economy, national security, abortion and health care. This morning, whether President Obama's agenda is the blueprint for lasting Democratic rule or an example of overreach that will allow Republicans to chart the course back to power. With us for their first Sunday morning showdown as party chairs, the Democratic National Committee's Tim Kaine and the Republican National Committee's Michael Steele square off on the many issues that divide their two parties.

Then the torture debate and the House speaker's pointed charge.

(Videotape)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): So yes, I'm saying that they are misleading--that the CIA was misleading the Congress.

(End videotape)

MR. GREGORY: What Speaker Pelosi knew about the use of waterboarding and whether she did anything to try to stop it. Our roundtable weighs in on that and much more after a busy week in Washington: the National Journal's Ron Brownstein; the Council on Foreign Relations' Richard Haass, author of new book "War of Necessity, War of Choice: A Memoir of Two Iraq Wars"; Newsweek's Jon Meacham; and The Wall Street Journal's Peggy Noonan.

But first, the chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Governor Tim Kaine of Virginia, and the chairman of the Republican National Committee, Michael Steele.

Welcome both of you back to MEET THE PRESS.

MR. MICHAEL STEELE: It's great to be with you.

GOV. TIM KAINE (D-VA): Thanks, David.

MR. GREGORY: There's a lot to talk about. Let's begin with the issue of abortion, the divide between left and right in this country, and it is playing out today on Notre Dame University's campus; the president there to receive an honorary degree, to give the commencement address, and he's created quite a bit of controversy.

MR. STEELE: Yeah.

MR. GREGORY: And here's the backdrop, and it's very interesting. The Gallup Poll did a survey this week and this is what it found: "A new poll...finds 51 percent of Americans calling themselves `pro-life' on the issue of abortion, 42 percent `pro-choice.' It's the first time a majority of U.S. adults have identified themselves as pro-life since Gallup began asking the question back in 1995."

Chairman Steele, both of you as Catholics, should Notre Dame have a pro-abortion rights president get a degree and address the graduates?

MR. STEELE: I think you have two issues here that need to get clearly separated. First off, any institution's going to be honored to have the president of the United States come and address them. And that's separate from that institution then placing its imprimatur on the president by conferring a degree, which is what--which is the case here. And that's where Catholics draw the line. It's not about the president speaking at the university, it's the fact that the institution is saying that we confer, you know, our favor on you...

MR. GREGORY: Right.

MR. STEELE: ...and by extension a lot of the values that you represent and hold, because they are tied together in many respects. Those institutions don't hand those degrees out that readily. So it is, it is a very strong sticking point and I think a lot of Catholics and a lot of pro-life Americans are very concerned about that. And I think it's inappropriate. And the president should speak, but the degree should not be conferred.

MR. GREGORY: Chairman Steele.

GOV. KAINE: Well, David, look, I'm a Catholic. I've got two brothers who are Notre Dame grads and feel very close to that community. I'm very happy that they've invited the president and that they are honoring him with a degree today because I think that his career merits it, and I think most Catholics agree. The issue on abortion is really this, the president has really made it pretty plain: Our party stands for let's reduce unintended pregnancies, let's reduce abortions, but we don't have to criminalize the choices that women make or that their doctors make to do so. So the president has got a very open dialogue going now with folks who want to come up with other strategies to reduce abortion. Better health care access for women, you know, appropriate education of youngsters, better adoption policies.

MR. GREGORY: Right.

GOV. KAINE: Those things can reduce abortion.

MR. GREGORY: What should the president say today, though, to address this controversy...

GOV. KAINE: Sure.

MR. GREGORY: ...at a time when this culture debate is going to rear its head again as we get to the Supreme Court?

GOV. KAINE: I think what he should say is that let's beware of those who want to make it into a polarized culture debate and talk about ways for Americans to find common ground. And that's what the president has done, and I think that's what he will share today at Notre Dame.

MR. GREGORY: You know, it's interesting, because this is an issue where some on the left have been critical of the president, saying that he hasn't pushed hard enough. This is how The New York Times reported it on Friday: "[Obama] has actually dialed back some earlier ambitions. In 2007, he promised Planned Parenthood that...[he would] sign the Freedom of Choice Act, which effectively codifies Roe v. Wade. Now he says the bill is `not my highest legislative priority.'" Is he backtracking?

GOV. KAINE: He's looking forward to bringing people together. Because again, abortion is like a lot of other issues. It gets pitted as, you know, one polarized side against the other. But American people, I think, recognize that we would want to reduce unintended pregnancies and abortions. You just don't have to criminalize women's health care choices...

MR. GREGORY: Right.

GOV. KAINE: ...to do so. And that's where the president is drawing people together.

MR. GREGORY: Chairman Steele, there are Republicans like Newt Gingrich, who's out there saying this is the most pro-abortion of any American president.

MR. STEELE: True.

MR. GREGORY: Do you see it that way? True?

MR. STEELE: I absolutely see it that way.

MR. GREGORY: Based on what?

MR. STEELE: Based on the fact--based on his past record in, in the state legislature, the bill that he sponsors--sponsored there with respect to partial-birth abortion and late-term abortions. The first steps of his administration were to undo the executive order that would ban federal funding of abortion and abortion-related information overseas. I mean, this president is really talking out both sides of his mouth on this issue. On the one instance he's telling Planned Parenthood, "I got your back, I'm going to be there," but then on the other instance he's coming into an institution like Notre Dame and he's going to play this, you know, "we can all get along on this issue." The reality of it is the majority of Americans now--and a lot of those numbers are reflected by young people who are coming around on this issue. The science is now proving that life has greater value than, than the Supreme Court thought it did in 1973. And I think that--you're with two pro-life chairman here. I think that this issue's going to be a big part of the debate going forward, and the administration had better be careful here because you cannot get away from the morality, morality that's involved with this issue.

GOV. KAINE: David, I, I just have to say on this, it's not talking out of both sides of your mouth to try to bring Americans together, and that's what this president is doing. As far as Newt Gingrich's statement, a great group in the Democratic Party, Dems For Life, has been very happy with the way this president has included them both in the platform drafting process and now in discussions about finding common ground on strategies to reduce unintended pregnancies and abortions.

MR. STEELE: Well, I...

MR. GREGORY: Mm-hmm.

Let me ask you this: Is the Republican Party open to pro-abortion right candidates in the way that Governor Kaine has survived in the Democratic Party?

MR. STEELE: We've, we've, we've had, we've had, we've had wonderful pro, pro-choice candidates. Governor Christie Todd Whitman, for example, was a very successful Republican governor.

MR. GREGORY: Right.

MR. STEELE: And I think, I think this is a great opportunity, since the chairman has made this, this opening here, I look forward to working to build a strong pro-life coalition within the Democratic Party since that's--this is the direction the president wants to go.

MR. GREGORY: All right, let me talk about how this may play out in the Supreme Court, with a new Supreme Court nominee forthcoming from the administration.

MR. STEELE: Mm-hmm.

MR. GREGORY: And the president has talked about wanting a nominee who is empathetic, somebody who knows what it's like to be poor, to be African-American, to be gay. Chairman Steele, you were on the radio recently and you took a shot on that priority for the president. This is what you said.

MR. STEELE: Mm-hmm.

MR. GREGORY: "I don't need some judge sitting up there feeling bad for my opponent because of their life circumstances or their condition. And short changing me and my opportunity to get fair treatment under the law. Crazy nonsense empathetic." Sounds like--you, you also say to the NRA on Friday, "Sounds like the president's been watching `Dr. Phil' too much, that's who he wants on the Supreme Court."

MR. STEELE: Yeah. I don't--look, I need a judge who's going to take the Constitution, apply the facts, apply the law and come to a reasoned, sound judgment. I don't need a judge to look at an African-American standing before him and go off on some, you know, liberal tangent about, "Oh, gee, I wonder what his life was like as a child." I'm concerned about getting fair adjudication and jurisprudence under the law. And, and the reality of it is this: This is an opportunity for the president to, to break this cycle that we've been in, this back and forth between Democrats and Republicans when it comes to judicial nominations. The Constitution must stand for something, it must mean something, and I think this is the appropriate time for this president to show that it has value and importance other than being empathetic.

MR. GREGORY: Chairman Kaine, Jeff Sessions, Senator Sessions, who's the ranking member on the Judiciary Committee, says you got to get a judge on there instead of, say, a politician who's going to think that they can start interpreting the law and making law. What do you say?

GOV. KAINE: Well, let me wrap it in with the empathy comment. You know, I, I think this is a fundamental philosophical difference between the parties, David. And, you know, I would say to Chairman Steele, you know, the party of no shouldn't now become the party of no empathy. What the president said was, "I want somebody who has the empathy to be able to understand when, when he is--when he or she is writing an opinion, how is it going to play out in the lives of people sitting in their kitchens trying to work on the economy?"

MR. STEELE: But that's not the role...

GOV. KAINE: "How is it going to play out in state legislators who have to follow what the court writes, or in a court that has to interpret it?" Empathy is the ability to understand how an opinion written in an closed chamber actually gets played out in real people's lives. That's what this president wants.

MR. STEELE: I'm sorry. I, I am sorry.

GOV. KAINE: And I'm surprised at the other guys would have a problem with that.

MR. STEELE: You know, the, the party of no is no to judges that are going to sit there and try to come up with some feel-good legislation, effectively, to feel sorry for me, a judge is there to look at he facts and apply the law and come up with the appropriate resolution. through their opinion. That's not the role of a judge. A judge is not there He's--I don't have time for the judge to feel good or bad about an issue.

GOV. KAINE: But that's not what the president ever said. He's, he's not...

MR. STEELE: He said he's empathetic. Go look up the definition.

GOV. KAINE: Right. I, I, I have. And...

MR. STEELE: The definition is empathetic is, like, concerned about one's feelings.

MR. GREGORY: All right.

MR. STEELE: I don't a judge to be concerned about my feelings.

GOV. KAINE: Well, if you guys are against empathy, just stand on that platform.

MR. STEELE: I'm not--it's not--look, it's not about...

GOV. KAINE: Empathy is something we think's a great value.

MR. STEELE: Come on, Chairman, you know it's not about being against empathy, it's about applying the rule of law and having jurisprudence that you can trust, not a judge who may have a bad day or be overly sensitive to my condition.

MR. GREGORY: Let me move away from the issue of social issues and let's talk about national security and where it divides these two parties. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is in some hot water this week. She's taken on the CIA, saying she was never actually briefed about the use of interrogation techniques like waterboarding. She accuses them of misleading the Congress. They have pushed back saying that wasn't the case. Why does this matter, Chairman Kaine, in the overall debate over "torture"?

GOV. KAINE: You know, David, great question, because I think the real issue is thank goodness we have a president and a Congress who are stating clearly torture is no longer an instrument of foreign policy of this nation. That's what really matters, that we've turned the page, we've said that torture is not an instrument of foreign policy. So what was...

MR. GREGORY: But Democrats don't want to turn page, Chairman.

GOV. KAINE: Well...

MR. GREGORY: They want accountability for Bush administration figures. And there are those on the right who say wait a minute...

GOV. KAINE: Well...

MR. GREGORY: ...what about the House speaker who was in a position to push back and evidently didn't?

GOV. KAINE: There are some who would like to get into what happened in meetings five, six years ago. The president has made pretty plain...

MR. GREGORY: Right.

GOV. KAINE: ...we've got to move forward. We have to move forward. Their accountability is important, but the most important thing is getting this right. And so he declared, in a very direct way, torture is no longer going to be used. And I think the American people are rallying around that, you know. So--and as, look, as I followed this situation with the speaker, she said she was briefed that the CIA was getting legal advice about what to do. She was not briefed about the, the tactics being used and thought they were going to come back to her on that, and nobody from the CIA has contradicted her on that.

MR. GREGORY: Well, they have said that they--their contemporaneous accounts indicate that she was indeed briefed on the use of waterboarding.

GOV. KAINE: I, I, I think they, they will say, if you go and look at Panetta's letter and others, that she was, that she was briefed about the fact that legal advice was being sought, that legal permission had been granted, but the actual fact that it had been used previous to that briefing I do not thing was disclosed to her.

MR. GREGORY: Do Democrats have faith still in the House speaker's leadership?

GOV. KAINE: Absolutely. Absolutely.

MR. GREGORY: Her job is secure?

GOV. KAINE: It is.

MR. STEELE: Well, I, I--thank goodness for Nancy Pelosi. And I'm so, I was so edified by that press conference the other day where she really expressed in as long as, Tom, she could take, eight different views on this one issue. And I think the reality here is that Nancy Pelosi has stepped in it big time, and she's not put the Democratic Party in a position where, where the question for me is does the president support Nancy Pelosi's versions of what happened or his CIA director's version of what happened? And then the next question is you've got, you know, Steny Hoyer himself who's calling for a closer examination of what Nancy Pelosi knew and when she knew it. And I, you know, and I know Steny very well, and he's a capable, qualified leader in the House. And he, if, if he sees some concern here, then there must be some rot somewhere in the explanation.

GOV. KAINE: (Unintelligible)

MR. GREGORY: Should there be a wider--should there be a truth commission? Should there be an investigation?

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