'Meet the Press' transcript for Jan. 25, 2009

MR. HAYES:  And it's going to be, I think, particularly hard because of the things that President Obama has said about Hamas in the past.  If you remember back in April, Jimmy Carter made a trip, he, he met with Hamas leaders, and Barack Obama said, "Hamas is a terrorist organization.  Hamas is not a state." So to bring them in at this point, even after he's said that he was willing to meet with rogue leaders, it seems to me he's going to have to back off from those comments that he made back in April.  That's going to be, I think, very difficult for him to do, not least of which because he's going to have Republicans and Jewish leaders say...

MR. GREGORY:  Right.

MR. HAYES:  ...this is a problem.

MR. GREGORY:  And...

MS. NORRIS:  There was one thing, though, that was symbolic this week, though.  The first phone call he made on his first day in office was to Mahmoud Abbas.  He called him before Ehud Olmert.

MR. GREGORY:  The leader of Fatah on the Palestinian West Bank.

MS. NORRIS:  And--yes, exactly.  Exactly.  And that was--you know, even though he said that "my first order of business is going to be focusing on the economy," the fact that that was the first call he made sent an important...

MR. GREGORY:  Right.

MS. NORRIS:  ...and potentially potent symbol in that part of the world.

MR. GREGORY:  And you talk about symbolism.  This was a portion of his inaugural address where he mentioned, I think, for the first time the Muslim world.  Watch this.

(Videotape, Tuesday)

PRES. OBAMA:  To the Muslim world, we seek a new way forward based on mutual interest and mutual respect.  To those leaders around the globe who seek to sow conflict or blame their society's ills on the West, know that your people will judge you on what you can build, not what you destroy.  To those, to those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history, but that we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your fist.

(End videotape)

MR. GREGORY:  What struck you about that, Michele?

MS. NORRIS:  Several things struck me about that.  First, the difference in tone from the last two inaugural speeches that we've heard.  "New way forward," big questions marks, big question marks there; we don't know exactly what, what that means.  But talking tough, but at the same time extending a hand through the kind of language that says, "We are willing to work with you. We are willing to sit down, we are willing to engage with you." He said that throughout the campaign.  Many people expected--and, and there was some, as I understand, tension within the incoming administration about the language that he should use there, whether it should be inclusive, whether he should use that pulpit on that day to say exactly that.  Clearly, he decided that he wanted to send that message and it was important to do that.

MR. GREGORY:  But, Steve Hayes, it's still an interesting question.  I've heard Republicans say, "We'll see how much different Obama one is from Bush two," in terms of diplomatic approach to the rest of the world.

MR. HAYES:  I, I think that, that is a key point.  I think you're much more likely to see tremendous continuity across the spectrum of foreign policy issues, whether it's on how to deal with, with rogue states.  I mean, people have, I think, a misimpression that the Bush administration under Condoleezza Rice as secretary of State was not engaged with diplomacy with Iran, was not engaged with diplomacy with North Korea.  Now, I don't think it was terribly successful, but it was happening.  So I think you're much more likely to see it.  You're likely to see it, I think, at a stepped-up level.

MR. GREGORY:  Mm-hmm.

MR. HAYES:  But this is much more about continuity, I think, than it is about dramatic change, as we--as we were led to believe in the campaign.

MR. GREGORY:  Tom Friedman, one are the new realities for a new president is governing is different than campaigning.  The New York Times reports about it this week with the headline, "Great Limits Come With Great Power, Ex-Candidate Finds:  Mr. Obama spent his first few days in office rolling out an orchestrated series of executive orders intended to signal that he would take the nation in a very different direction from his predecessor, George W. Bush.  Yet he wrestled with fresh challenges at every turn.  ...  It did not take long for the new president to discover that there were limits to his power to turn his campaign rhetoric into reality." Case in point, Guantanamo Bay; wants to close it down within a year.  It's something John McCain would have done as well.  But as he's admitted, it's not so easy.

MR. FRIEDMAN:  It's not so easy.  It's, it's clear, though, David, we do need a rule of law framework that is both legitimate, transparent and has a, a degree of consensus in this country that can govern the new war we're in from apprehension of, of terrorists and terror suspects to detention to interrogation to prosecution to release.  And we've been kind of making it up as we've gone along, and I, I have some sympathy for that.  It's been a very complicated problem.  But I think now is a good time to step back, but to do it in a, I think, sober way.  We need to remember always, I think, three things:  who we are, first and foremost, and that we be true to that.  We also have to remember who they are.  These are not the poor and crippled newsboys we're fighting, OK?  This is not the KGB.  This is a very different enemy that chops people's heads off and puts it on the, on the Web, OK?  And lastly, I think we do have to remember one other thing:  one more 9/11, one more massive attack inside this country, and that's the end of the open society as we know it.  You'll be taking off more than your shoes at the airport.  So I think we got to balance all those things.  I'm glad the president's saying let's start over.  He's, he's carved himself some wiggle room in there, too, by saying, "We're not going to torture anymore, but we're going to bring the experts together and let's figure out exactly how we do this." I think you can do it in a year.  I, I, I admire him for taking this step.

MR. GREGORY:  And it is interesting, because he's left the door open, Steve Hayes, for some of the harsher interrogation techniques to still be used by the CIA; even though they're saying it's got to be--interrogators should use the Army field manual, there's still the opportunity to use those other techniques.  So the question is, if Democrats had been faced with 9/11, a Democratic president, would they have made different choices or not?

MR. HAYES:  Right.  That is--I think that is a key question, and hopefully we will never find out.  But what's interesting about the, the situation he finds himself in with this loophole, in a sense, that he's created...

MR. GREGORY:  Right.

MR. HAYES:  The Wall Street Journal called it the "Jack Bauer exception"--the need to use harsh interrogation techniques, perhaps, if an attack is imminent--we don't yet have an answer from him as to whether he will use it, whether he would use those techniques.  And we heard a lot of rhetoric on the campaign that such things were abhorrent, and this was really, I think, part of the foundation of the criticism for the Bush administration.  It's interesting to me and I think a sign of, of just how difficult governing is going to be that he has not closed that loophole and, in fact, has deliberately left it open.

MS. NORRIS:  I think the lawyers call that purposeful ambiguity.

MR. GREGORY:  Yeah, right.

MR. HAYES:  That's right.

MR. GREGORY:  But, Michele, let's talk about the fact that lobbyists are right up there with journalists and lawyers right now in terms of their favor in the city under this new administration.  This is what then candidate Obama said--this was in November of 2007--about lobbyists.

(Videotape, November 10, 2007)

PRES. OBAMA:  I am in this race to tell the corporate lobbyists that their days of setting the agenda in Washington are over.  I have done more than any other candidate in this race to take on the lobbyists, and I have won.  They have not funded my campaign, they will not work in my White House and they will not drown out the voices of the American people when I am president.

(End videotape)

MR. GREGORY:  On day one, in fact, he comes in, signs an executive order. This is how The New York Times reported on it:  "In what ethics-in-government advocates described as a particularly far-reaching move, Mr. Obama barred officials of his administration from lobbying their former colleagues `for as long as I am president.' He barred former lobbyists from working for agencies they had lobbied within the past two years and required them to rescue themselves from issues they had handles during that time."

But then word comes that, in fact, the administration granted an ethics waiver for a Defense Department nominee who was, in fact, a former defense lobbyist for Raytheon; it's Bill Lynn to be deputy secretary of Defense.  Critics pounced, including John McCain, who said this:  "I'm disappointed in President Obama's decision to waive the `revolving door' provisions of the executive order.  ...  While I applaud the president's action to implement new, more stringent ethical rules, I had hoped he would not find it necessary to waive them so soon." What happened?

MS. NORRIS:  The waiver, the waiver is clearly--it's spelled out if you read the directive, the ethics directive.  It's clearly spelled out in there.  If you judge Barack Obama by the statement that you aired there, which I believe was from November of 2007...

MR. GREGORY:  Right.  Mm-hmm.

MS. NORRIS:  ...this would be a clear case of someone going back on a promise that they had made to voters.  In fact, his language had evolved throughout the campaign from saying, "Oh, lobbyists will never work in my White House" to "A lobbyist may be involved in the government only under certain conditions," to the, the moral directives and the ethics directives that we saw this week. This is an interesting first case for them to make a waiver on this exception with someone who so clearly is going to be working in the arena where he obviously lobbied.

MR. GREGORY:  Right.

MS. NORRIS:  They say this is defensible in part because of a particular expertise that this individual has.  They've suggested that there may other waivers in the area of national...

MR. GREGORY:  Right.

MS. NORRIS:  ...national security because of security clearances and again, that issue of expertise.  But they do leave themselves open to criticism on this.

MR. GREGORY:  Right.

MS. NORRIS:  And I do think by choosing this case it's going to be more difficult to, to--you know, lobbyists are all throughout Washington.

MR. GREGORY:  Yeah.

MS. NORRIS:  The people that move back and forth.  This is, though, one step, two step, probably five steps further than any other White House has taken on this particular issue.

MR. GREGORY:  Well, before we go, I want to get one thing in; that is Governor Blagojevich in Illinois sat down with my colleague Amy Robach from the "Today" show.  He's facing corruption charges, he's also in the middle of a full-scale PR blitz.  And he talked about what he may do in the course of his impeachment trial and perhaps trial down the road.  This is his conversation with Amy Robach.

(Videotape, Saturday):

MS. AMY ROBACH:  You said you've done nothing wrong, but I, I want you to specifically address the allegation at issue, that you tried to profit, that you tried to sell the Senate seat of Barack Obama.

GOV.  ROD BLAGOJEVICH:  Flat out, completely untrue.  And when I have my day in court, I, I will prove that and I will clear my name.  And I wish I could begin that process with a fair impeachment hearing, which would begin to show that with witnesses who would be sworn to testify under oath.

I'd like to call the president's chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel.  I'd like to call Valerie Jarrett, a high ranking official in President Obama's administration.  I'd like to call Congressman Jackson and a whole bunch of other people who will testify under oath that I did nothing wrong in, in relation to picking a United States senator.

(End videotape)

MR. GREGORY:  Oh, boy.  Tom Friedman, this is the last thing President Obama needs is the Blagojevich trial with his top aides.

MR. FRIEDMAN:  I think he should go--he's innocent until proven guilty, but I think his future is on "Saturday Night Live," not in politics.

MR. GREGORY:  He actually compared himself in the interview--when he was arrested, he said, "I tried to put it in perspective by thinking about Mandela and Dr. King and Gandhi." So this is a colorful political figure.

MR. HAYES:  That's a bit rich.  I think he also said that he was being persecuted because he cut taxes for the people of Illinois.  So I think...

MS. NORRIS:  And made a biblical reference in doing that, yeah.

MR. HAYES:  Taken with a grain of salt.  Yeah, yeah.

MS. NORRIS:  Yeah.

MR. GREGORY:  But just to point out, Rahm Emanuel was on the program last week saying he did have conversations with him, but he never felt that the governor was trying to get anything in return.

MS. NORRIS:  Well, this is--it would be unusual if Rahm Emanuel wasn't having some sort of conversation with the...

MR. GREGORY:  Right.

MS. NORRIS:  ...with the governor of the state, and particularity since Rahm Emanuel seats in--is--holds the seat that Blagojevich once held.

MR. GREGORY:  OK, going to leave it there.  Thanks to all of you for being here.

And a reminder, you can see more of Governor Blagojevich's first television interview since corruption charges were filed against him, that is tomorrow on "Today."

And we'll have more with our roundtable in our MEET THE PRESS Take Two on our Web site this afternoon.  They will share their impressions of Inauguration Day 2009.  That's all at mtp.msnbc.com.

That's all for today.  We'll be back next week.  If it's Sunday, it's MEET THE PRESS.

More from NBC News broadcasts   One-on-one with Bill & Melinda Gates One man’s trash becomes another’s home Low-tech tactics boost border fight Col. Jacobs: Russia, get the message yet?   Murray: Filming 'Fantastic Mr. Fox' was 'different'   No ‘favorite things’? Say it isn’t so-prah! Struggling species gets helping hand Follow on Twitter: Making a Difference

MORE FROM MEET THE PRESS

Meet the Press Section Front

Nov. 29: Rick Warren, Bill & Melinda Gates Nov. 22: Senate roundtable, Brinker, Snyderman Nov. 15: Clinton, Duncan, Gingrich, Sharpton Nov. 8: Casey, Barbour, Rendell, roundtable, Brokaw Nov. 1: Tim Geithner, David Plouffe, roundtable Oct. 25: Cornyn, Schumer, Burnett, Sorkin, roundtable Oct. 18: Jarrett, Dodd, Kyl, Shriver, Podesta Oct. 11: Levin, Graham, McCaffrey, Myers, roundtable Oct. 4: Ambassador Susan Rice, roundtable Sept. 27: Bill Clinton, Paterson, Kyl, Webb Meet the Press Section Front   Add Meet the Press headlines to your news reader: