Rick Warren: Pastor in the political spotlight

Earlier this month, at a World AIDS Day event, Pastor Rick Warren gave President Bush a medal for his efforts to end the AIDS epidemic in Africa. And President-elect Obama appeared via satellite at the same conference. In fact, many AIDS activists say Warren's efforts to fight the disease have been exemplary.

Warren has given away millions -- 90 percent of his income, he says -- in a worldwide effort to help end disease and poverty and promote reconciliation. But in the last two months, some of the goodwill Warren has generated across the social spectrum has been put to the test.

In a video released to church members just before Election Day, Warren urged his followers to vote for California's Proposition 8, which aimed to reverse a ruling by the California Supreme Court allowing same-sex marriage.

Warren says he joined the fray out of a concern if Proposition 8 wasn't passed, pastors would lose their right to preach about the Biblical definition of marriage. But many constitutional experts say that fear was totally unfounded and gay rights leaders saw Warren's stance as an infringement on their civil rights. 

After Proposition 8 passed, same-sex marriage supporters converged on the entrance to Warren's Saddleback Church.

This week, when President-elect Obama named Warren to deliver the opening prayer at the Inauguration, the controversy flared up again.  The president of the gay rights group Human Rights Campaign wrote a letter to Obama saying Warren's selection "tarnished the view that gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender Americans have a place at your table." 

Ann Curry: Some people in the gay community wonder why you supported Prop 8. Why you supported taking away their right to love each other in marriage.

Rick Warren: Yeah, well, I'm not taking away their right to love each other.

Ann Curry: In marriage.

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Rick Warren: I am opposed to the redefinition of marriage.  First place, to me, it was free speech issue foremost of all.  First place, I don't know any church in America that's done more to help the gay community, particularly with AIDS, than Saddleback.

Ann Curry: And, in fact, gay people will say that is true.

Rick Warren: Yeah.  And my wife and I have given millions of dollars to help people--

Ann Curry: Which is why they're so hurt.

Rick Warren: Yeah.

Ann Curry: Why many gay people are so hurt because of their faith and and reverence for what you have done in this issue.  How have you reconciled yourself with that pain that you've caused because of that loss of faith in you?

Rick Warren: Well, because if that hadn't passed, the pain it would have caused to far millions more, I think, would be more severe.  And here's what I see in this, Ann.  For 5,000 years every single culture and every single religion has defined marriage as a man and a woman, not just Christianity [but also] Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism.

Ann Curry: Your position has raised the specter that you are homophobic.  (laughter by Warren) And that is why people are angry.  Gay people are angry.  And how is it possible for them to be civil when someone-- maybe deny-- you would say, "I don't like what you are."  You understand that.

Rick Warren: Yeah, I could give you 100 gay--

Ann Curry: Are you homophobic?

Rick Warren: Of course not. I've always treated them with respect when they come and wanna talk to me. I talk to them.  When the protesters came, we served them water and doughnuts.

But Warren says he's surprised by the hostile reaction of gay rights advocates.

Rick Warren: The hate speech against me is incendiary.

Ann Curry: So what happened to Mr. Reconciliation?

Rick Warren: Tolerance used to mean, "I treat you with respect even though we disagree."  Some people want tolerance to mean now that all ideas are equally valid. That's nonsense. There are some things that are right and there are some things that are wrong.

Ann Curry: If science finds that this is biological, indisputably, not something that can be explained in any other way except that people are born to be gay, would you change your position?

Rick Warren: No.  And the reason why--

Ann Curry: Why?

Rick Warren: I'd be happy to tell you why. The reason why is because it doesn't matter to me.  If it's biological, we'll be glad to know.  We all have biological predispositions.  Some people struggle with anger.  And other people say, "I don't struggle with anger, but I sure struggle with fear."  Some people say, "Oh, I don't struggle with this.  I struggle with being shy."

Ann Curry: You're saying if it's part of your biology, it's your job to struggle against it if, in fact, it's the wrong--

Rick Warren: Well, here what I'm saying. I've had many gay friends tell me, "Well, Rick, why shouldn't I have multiple sexual partners?  It's the natural thing to do." Well, just because it seems natural doesn't mean it's best for you or society. I'm naturally inclined to have sex with every beautiful woman I see.  But that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. And why should I reign in my natural impulses and you say, "Well, because I have natural impulses towards the same sex, I shouldn't have to reign them in." Well, I disagree.  I think that's part of maturity. I think it's part of delayed gratification.  I think it's part of character.

Warren says his opposition to same sex marriage is shared by a majority of Americans and by President-elect Obama —  and is based on Biblical teachings.

Rick Warren: God said in Genesis 1, a man and woman should cling to each other for life. Now I'm in favor of human rights for everybody...everybody. I'm against redefining marriage historically 5,000 years... because then it'll be re-defined. What if it's between a brother and a sister?

Ann Cury: You said that God says in the Bible that a man and a woman should cling to each other for life, but it does not say that a marriage is only between a man and a woman. In fact the Bible says that King Solomon had 700 wives. Leviticus speaks of homosexuality as being a sin, but also...  for eating fish without fins and getting a tattoo.

Rick Warren: The people that make that argument don't understand there are three kind kinds of law in the Bible that are very different. There's civil law, which is for the nation of Israel. There's ceremonial law, which is for the Jewish priesthood. And there is moral law, which is for everybody. The laws about eating fish and stuff, those are civil and ceremonial laws for Israel. No Christian follows those.

Unlike like many opponents of same sex marriage, though, Warren doesn't see it as a danger to heterosexual married couples. 

Rick Warren: I don't think gay marriage is any threat to marriage. So that's not why I'm voting the way I did. I think divorce is a bigger problem to marriage than anything else.

More from the interview Warren and his wife, Kay, say they know the danger of divorce all too well. Married more than three decades, with three children and four children, their own marriage had a very rocky start. Rick Warren: We'd be divorced today if it weren't for Jesus Christ in our lives. The first two years of our marriage were hell on earth. And finally, we just humbled ourselves and said, "Let's go get a good Christian counselor to help us, a marriage counselor." And I racked up a $1,500 counseling bill on my Mastercard.  I always thought, "Mastercard, a saved marriage?  Priceless."  (laughter) When people say, "I can't afford counseling," I say, "You can't afford not to get it."  Thirty-three years later, my wife is my best friend.

Thursday afternoon, the president-elect defended his choice of Warren at a news conference Thursday, saying "It is important for America to come together even though we may have disagreements on certain social issues."

And Warren issued a statement saying, "I commend President-elect obama for his courage to willingly take enormous heat from his base by inviting someone like me, with whom he doesn't agree on every issue."

Despite the furor, Pastor Rick Warren remains the most influential evangelical in the country and his inspirational messages resonate with millions.

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