'Meet the Press' transcript for Nov. 16, 2008

SEN. LEVIN:  They should have more than a say.  There's an oversight board in the provision for $700 billion, by the way, that's been provided to the financial industry, and what this would represent is 4 percent of that $700 billion.  Four percent to save an industry which is the most important single industry in America.  I'd be happy to tell Rick Wagoner that he ought to consider resigning if that is the difference...

MR. BROKAW:  Well...

SEN. LEVIN:  ...between getting this kind of support or not.  I haven't been asked to do that.  You're asking me now would I.  I'd be happy to do that.

MR. BROKAW:  And what have you heard from President-elect Obama about what should be done?  I suspect that you've been in conversation with him.  And can something be done before the end of the year or are you going to have to wait until the new administration takes office?

SEN. LEVIN:  Yeah, what was missing in your list of quotes, by the way, was not, was not only Obama, but was Bush.  Both the president and the president-elect support this kind of immediate aid.  The only difference between them is the source of it, whether or not it's one pot of $25 billion, which is intended for the future high-tech vehicles, or whether it's part of the $700 billion stabilization fund.  Both already appropriated, which Democrats in the Congress favor.  But that is the big issue which divides the White House from the leadership of the Congress.  And by the way, the Republican leader in the Senate favors immediate support for this industry. All of us want conditions, all of us are--want to support the taxpayers, all of us want to continue the restructuring; but in order to do that, you've got to have this interim support as every other country with an automobile industry is going to do.  No other country with an automobile industry will allow it to go down.

MR. BROKAW:  Senator Shelby, did you hear anything in what Senator Levin had to say that would keep you from mounting a filibuster on the floor of the Senate to oppose this?

SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R-AL):  Absolutely.  I have a lot of respect, and we're--Carl Levin and I are friends.  We work together on a lot of the issues. We totally differ on this.  I know he comes and he represents a lot of people that will be deeply affected by Detroit.  We all care about our jobs, we care about tomorrow's products.  But if we let the money go to General Motors, for example, with the same management, the same ideas, it's money wasted.  Mark it down and watch it, and it'll be more money.  This is just the beginning of, of corporate welfare in a big, big way.

MR. BROKAW:  Can I read...

SEN. LEVIN:  It's not the beginning.

MR. BROKAW:  Can I read something?

SEN. LEVIN:  It's not the beginning.

SEN. SHELBY:  Well, we've already got it, I said, in a big way.

SEN. LEVIN:  It's not the beginning, Tom.  We've done this before. We--we've--we supported Chrysler when it was in this kind of difficulty. People said, "Oh my God, that's corporate welfare." We made money, actually, by supporting Chrysler.  We did it with the airline industries in, in 2001. The airline industry was in real trouble.  The government came to its support. We've done this in a number of industries; this is not unprecedented.  The issue's whether we're going to have manufacturing in America or whether we're going to see the continuation of the loss of millions of jobs overseas.

MR. BROKAW:  Senator, Senator Shelby...

SEN. SHELBY:  We don't need government--governmental subsidies for manufacturing in this country.  It's the French model, it's the wrong road, we will pay for it.  The average American taxpayer is going to pay dearly for this, if I'm not wrong.

MR. BROKAW:  All right, let me just ask you...

SEN. LEVIN:  Two-hundred billion in tax--$200 billion in lost taxes is the estimate if the domestic automobile industry goes under; $200 billion lost to the taxpayers of America through the loss of these three million jobs, the pickup of all the pensions, which would be necessary.

MR. BROKAW:  Let me just ask you both about bankruptcy.  Here's from The New York Times, Michelle Maynard writing on Thursday.  "A bankruptcy filing by a single Detroit car company could cost the economy $175 billion in the first year of the legal case in lost employee income and tax revenue, the Center for Automotive Research estimated this week.  Given the complexity, a GM bankruptcy case could last three years or more.

And, Senator Shelby, 80 percent of car buyers who were questioned said they would not buy a car from a company in bankruptcy because it's a long-term investment, it's not like an airline, it's something that they would have to depend on to get parts and service.  So is bankruptcy really a viable option if you want to, in the long term, save the Big Three in Detroit?

SEN. SHELBY:  It is, it is a viable option, but the Big Three, they're going to have to save themselves.  If they don't--if they keep going down the road--and I predict they will--they're on now with just a blood transfusion, a lot of money, it won't matter.  They're postponing, as I said earlier, the inevitable if they don't change the way they're doing business, if they're not innovative, if they're not willing to face up to their workers and say "Look, we've got to renegotiate some things here, we're not making money." The government cannot subsidize and should not subsidize jobs like this, and that's what the road we're going down is going to do.

MR. BROKAW:  Senator Levin, let me just read to you something that Tom Friedman wrote in The New York Times last week.  "The blame for this travesty not only belongs to the auto executives, but must be shared with the entire Michigan delegation in the House and Senate, virtually all of them, year after year, voted however Detroit automakers and unions instructed them to vote. That shielded GM, Ford and Chrysler from environmental concerns, mileage concerns and the full impact of global competition that could have forced Detroit to adapt a long time ago."

At a time when Toyota was producing the Prius and Honda, much more gas-friendly cars, GM, in fact, was turning out the Cadillac Escalade, the Hummers and other big SUVs that were eating a lot of gasoline when a lot of people were raising flags.

SEN. LEVIN:  We just voted to increase the mileage requirements earlier this year.  We all voted for that, we came to an agreement on it.  We can all look back at history and look for plenty of fault in plenty of places, by the way, including the Big Three.  But this has changed, and what Tom Friedman and others have not recognized is the significant changes that have taken place. Half of the, of the hourly workers at GM have been let go in order to restructure GM.  Over a third of the white collar workers, the salary workers, have been let go in order to help restructure.  The, the unions have taken major hits on benefits.  And we've also seen GM, Ford and Chrysler shift their product mix.  It was under a lot of pressure from the Tom Friedmans and others.  Fine.  But it has had an effect.  And what troubles me is that people do not see that that restructuring and that move into the high-tech and advanced technology vehicles has begun significantly.

As I said before, GM now produces more models getting more than 30 miles per gallon, twice as many, as any of its competitors.  Ford, Chrysler are moving into the hybrids.  We're doing the plug-ins.  GM is going to lead the way in plug-in hybrids if people will recognize that this isn't the '70s when the, when the Big Three were producing inferior products.  Things have changed, if people will only recognize what the Big Three, what the UAW have worked out in terms of concessions, in terms of pay cuts, cuts, in terms of benefit cuts. Recognize that change, but let it happen.  We can't get there unless we have this temporary infusion to get it over a problem which is not the creation of the Big Three.  This economic collapse is not the--was not the caused by the Big Three.  They had problems that they did cause 10 years and 20 years ago. They've changed.  But the economic circumstances that we find ourselves in is an international, global economic problem that, again, no other country with an auto industry will allow their industry to drop out and die.

MR. BROKAW:  Senator Shelby, you get the last word here.

SEN. LEVIN:  Yeah, he should.

MR. BROKAW:  You're in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.  Are you...

SEN. SHELBY:  Thank you.

MR. BROKAW:  ...prepared to leave the studios here today and go to the Tuscaloosa Chevrolet dealership just off I-59?

SEN. SHELBY:  Absolutely I would.

MR. BROKAW:  And...

SEN. SHELBY:  And I would hope that...

MR. BROKAW:  And, and...

SEN. SHELBY:  ...they continue to produce good cars.  I've bought them before and will buy them again.  But this--these companies are going to have to downsize, they're going to have to be innovative, they're going to have to change their whole model.  And the government, at the end of the day, Tom, should not choose which companies are going to survive or not survive.  We should let the market work that way.  And it has...

SEN. LEVIN:  Nor should we choose its leaders.

SEN. SHELBY:  ...in the past, and it will in the future.

MR. BROKAW:  Do you think--gentlemen, let's see if we can get any agreement on this.  Do you think this will be resolved in the lame-duck session?

Senator Levin, first of all.

SEN. LEVIN:  I do.  I think that the leaders in both houses want this interim support, Democrats and Republicans.  There's a difference on which is the best way to do it, but they agree, as does President Bush and President-elect Obama, that there must be this support so that we have an industry which can continue to do the innovation which has already begun.

MR. BROKAW:  And, Senator Shelby, you think it can get done before the end of this lame-duck session?

SEN. SHELBY:  I hope it won't get done because I think it's a waste of taxpayers' money.  It's throwing money down the drain, and it won't work in the long run.  It's postponing the inevitable.  Remember that.

MR. BROKAW:  All right.  Thank you very much, Senator Shelby...

SEN. SHELBY:  Thank you.

MR. BROKAW:  ...in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

SEN. LEVIN:  Thank you, Tom.

MR. BROKAW:  Carl Levin in Michigan.  Thanks for being with us.

It is Green Is Universal all week here at NBC, and the issue of energy dependence is certainly key in that discussion.  And joining us now, a very familiar figure, the legendary Texas oilman T. Boone Pickens.

Welcome, Mr. Pickens, from Dallas this morning.

MR. T. BOONE PICKENS:  Good morning, Tom.

MR. BROKAW:  You just heard that very spirited discussion.  Do you think the Big Three automobile dealers should survive?

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