'Meet the Press' transcript for Sept. 14, 2008

MR. BROKAW:  Well, the--on an individual basis, both of them have been appearing in town halls, and they will appear in three presidential debates.

But let me move on, if I can, and talk about something else that's been getting a lot of attention.  When you were at the Republican National Convention as the keynoter in St.  Paul the other night, you talked about some of Barack Obama's resume as a community organizer.  Let's just share with our audience once again what you had to say at that time.

(Videotape, September 3, 2008)

MAYOR GIULIANI:  On the other hand, you have a resume from a gifted man with an Ivy League education.  He worked as a community organizer.  What?

Maybe this is the first problem on the resume.  He worked as a community organizer.  He immersed himself in Chicago machine politics.

(End videotape)

MR. BROKAW:  Senator Obama, who had an Ivy-league education and could've gone to Wall Street, went back to Chicago on the South Side.  As you know, his supporters have defended him for working with poor families, many of whom lost their jobs when the Gary steel mills closed.  In that mocking fashion, it seemed to a lot of people that you were belittling the role of a community organizer, and it led to this button.  It was addressed to Senator Palin, because she also talked about it.  "Jesus Christ was a community organizer. Pontius Pilate was a governor." In retrospect, do you think you had too much sport with his role as community organizer, Mr. Mayor?

MAYOR GIULIANI:  No.  No.  I think he had too, too little of a record of a community organizer.  The point is that Senator Obama's record as a community organizer is a very sparse one, as is his record as a state senator. Education Week said that he basically had no record on education, which is why maybe Senator McCain's idea of an accomplishment in that ad goes a little bit too far.

What I was talking about is how little a record he had, how so, how so many of those programs have failed, how little it's been really looked at by the media.  This is--and also, the group that recruited him was a Saul Alinsky group that has all kinds of questions with regard to their outlook on the economy, their outlook on capitalism.  I think it's at the core of Senator Obama's belief that the tax system should be used for a redistribution of wealth, rather than really for gaining revenues for the country.  When, when Senator Obama was asked about his increase in capital gains tax and was told that if he does that, he would actually deprive the federal government of revenues, his answer was, "Well, it's only fair." Which gets you to a very core Saul Alinsky kind of almost socialist notion that it should be used for redistribution of wealth.

I think what we haven't done adequately in this, in this campaign, meaning Republicans, is maybe some of the emphasis on some of these other issues, it should be on the fact that Senator Obama is the most left-wing candidate the Democratic Party has ever had, the most liberal member of the Senate, much more liberal than Senator Schumer, than you just had on.  And his running mate, Senator Biden, is the third most liberal member of the Senate.  So these are the things we're talking about.  And the community organizer thing was consistent with that kind of very left-wing approach.  Sure community organizers do good work, and some don't do very good work.  Just like lawyers, everybody else.  The question is what kind of work did, did Barack Obama do and how effective was it long-term?  A lot of those housing projects failed.

MR. BROKAW:  Mr. Mayor, among others, Warren Buffett is a supporter of Barack Obama's, and he thinks that there can be an increase in the capital gains tax without doing any long-term damage to the economy.  And I think it would be probably a pretty big reach to describe him as a Saul Alinsky kind of economist.

MAYOR GIULIANI:  It would be, and everybody has all different kinds of people that agree with you or disagree with you.  And, and, and be very careful, Tom. What you said is he doesn't believe it'll do damage to the economy.  Here's the point that I made.  The point that I made is we have twice increased the capital gains tax.  So if this is just opinion, it's fact and reality.  Both times, it deprived the government of revenue.  In other words, the government got less revenue.  And that, that is what would happen right now.  And at a time in which Barack Obama wants to fund trillions of dollars in government programs, I have to believe that he'd want to look for more revenue, rather than less revenue.  So what that says to me is that his real concept of taxation is to be used as a redistribution of wealth.  There may be other reasons why people support him, but they should be pretty clear on that.

MR. BROKAW:  Mr. Mayor, let me also share with you something that the former majority leader of the House of Representatives, Dick Armey, who was part of the Republican Revolution with Newt Gingrich, had to say this past week.  This is in USA Today on September 3rd.  "The `Bubba Vote' and underlying racism will hurt Democrat Barack Obama in key battleground states such as Ohio and Pennsylvania, former House majority leader Dick Armey said.

"The Bubba vote is there, and it's very real, and it is everywhere.  ... There's an awful lot of people in America, bless their heart, who simply are not emotionally prepared to vote for a black man.' ...

"He said the `Bubba vote' is `invisible' in pre-election opinion polls, because voters do not admit that they would oppose a candidate because of race."

He went on to say that voting because of race is deplorable, but in a close race, he said it will make a big difference.  So if Senator McCain wins based on the Dick Armey formulation, does he win because of race and playing the race card?

MAYOR GIULIANI:  Well, gee, I think I can speak for Senator McCain.  He's a good friend of mine.  He doesn't want any vote for anyone, from anyone who's voting for him based on race, and I think that same thing would be true for Barack Obama.  Unfortunately, there are people out there who are going to vote based on race one way or another.  I hope that we're beyond that, I hope there are very few of them, and I hope they cancel themselves out, because it could happen either way.  But I think neither candidate wants that.

MR. BROKAW:  As you know better than anyone, Mr. Mayor, we are celebrating and acknowledging the terrible sacrifices that people made seven years ago with September 11th, 2001 this past week in New York, here at the Pentagon, and also in Pennsylvania.  It did come up, the whole question of national security at the Republican National Convention.  This is what Lindsey Graham, your fellow speaker, had to say about what's going on in Iraq and what he described as the success of the surge.  Let's listen to that, and then get your response to it.

(Videotape)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC):  Let there be no doubt about it.  We are on the road to victory.  Victory.  You can say it at this convention.  We are winning.

(End videotape)

MR. BROKAW:  But the man in charge in Iraq, General David Petraeus, in an interview with the French Press Agency, said, "Al-Qaeda has been significantly damaged, degraded and is on the run, but it is still capable of launching `lethal, sensational, dangerous and barbaric attacks.'"

And then in an interview with the BBC, he went on to say, Iraq is "still hard, but hopeful." The progress was a "bit more durable but that the situation there remained fragile.

"He said he did not know that he would ever use the word `victory,' quoting, `This is not the sort of struggle where you take a hill, plant a flag, and go home to a victory parade ...  it's not war with a simple slogan.'"

Not even President Bush will use the word "victory" or "winning." He is using the word "succeeding." Wasn't that an overstatement on the part of Lindsey Graham?

MAYOR GIULIANI:  Well, I think when you give speeches sometimes you're prone to do that, but I, I can see those two statements being kind of similar. Lindsey was talking about the road to victory.  He didn't say we had victory. He said the "road to victory," and maybe if I were the--if I were the general on the ground like General Petraeus, I'd, I'd--you know, I might not want to use exactly that word.  But here's the simple fact:  Barack Obama voted to pull the troops out, he voted for failure in Iraq, for loss in Iraq.  Had, had Barack Obama been president of the United States, with so little experience that he has, he would have pulled us out of Iraq, made sure that we lost, and we wouldn't have had--even had the chance for victory.  And that's--I mean, that's a definite decision that Barack Obama made and John McCain made. Barack Obama was just wrong about the surge, and, and John McCain, to his everlasting credit, was correct about it.  And I think that's just one of many indications as to why one is prepared to be commander in chief and the other isn't.

MR. BROKAW:  Later in this broadcast, we're going to be hearing from Bob Woodward, who has written a new book called "War Within" about the turmoil over tactics and strategy and the lack of success, especially in the year 2006 at a time when the president was very anxious and frustrated about what was going on.  When his closest advisers were saying...

MAYOR GIULIANI:  Correct.

MR. BROKAW:  ..."It's utter chaos in Baghdad," the president was going to the American public and saying, "We're doing very well, and we're making great progress." As...

MAYOR GIULIANI:  Right.

MR. BROKAW:  ...LBJ did during Vietnam, did the president forfeit his obligation to the American people to tell them the truth about in fact what was happening there, the difference between his public appearances and his private anxieties?

MAYOR GIULIANI:  You know, I'll have Bob Woodward comment on that.  But as far as John McCain is concerned, I mean, this is a very strong point in his favor. John McCain, going back to 2003, 2004, including during the period you're talking about, was the strongest voice by far that we were making a mistake in Iraq, to the consternation of his own party.  And in that particular sense, there can't be anything John McCain has a stronger record on.  It also demonstrates this idea, like my good friend Senator Schumer said before, that this is--he kind of got that in--you know, it's sort of a, it's sort of a McCain-Palin-Bush ticket.  I mean, that's kind of wearing thin.  I mean, the, the strongest opponent of the strategy in Iraq, not, not, not the taking out of Saddam Hussein, but the strategy in Iraq, by far, was John McCain.  And he was right about the surge, and Obama was wrong.

MR. BROKAW:  All right, we have a final question, if we can for you.  In a recent interview with our affiliate in Portland, Maine, WCSH, John McCain was asked about Governor Palin and her national security credentials.  Let's just share with you that exchange, if we can.

(Videotape)

Unidentified Reporter:  What experience...

SEN. McCAIN:  Sure.

Reporter:  ...does she have in the field of national security?

SEN. McCAIN:  Energy.  She knows more about energy than probably anyone else in the United States of America.

(End videotape)

MR. BROKAW:  "More about energy than probably anyone else in the United States of America." More about solar, more about wind, more about geothermal than the MIT scientists who are working on this initiative?  Boone Pickens? Boone Pickens?  Senator Al Gore?  Do you think she knows more than any of those people do?

MAYOR GIULIANI:  I think John was referring to elected officials.  He, he would not be referring to Boone Pickens and certainly wouldn't be referring to nuclear scientists and people like that.  I think he was talking about politicians and probably, in particular, the people involved in the race.  And I consider that on national security the best experience you're going to have is executive experience, the kind of experience that a Ronald Reagan had, the kind of experience that a Franklin Roosevelt had.  And that, that, that's where I think she's, well, at least considerably more experienced than Barack Obama, who really has never had to make decisions that are, that are accountable.  So I don't know.  I think this experience thing kind of argues in favor of the McCain-Palin ticket, but probably you get to see that on, you know, based on the seat you're sitting in.

MR. BROKAW:  Senator Obama and Senator Biden have both released their tax returns.  As you heard, Senator Schumer has recommended very strongly that Governor Palin do the same thing.  Will she do that?  And will you recommend to her that she does that?

MAYOR GIULIANI:  Well, you know, I think that that's something they have to decide.  That's not something that's my role to decide, when to release them. I think they said they are going to release them.  It's just a question of doing it on their own schedule.

I should also point out that that whole investigation in, in Alaska that Senator Schumer mentioned before, I mean, that's being run by Obama supporters.  I, I don't know if you know that.  Have you shown the picture of the three state senators that are involved in that right behind an Obama sign? One of them has already said that the McCain campaign can be ready for an October surprise.  And I'm, I'm a lawyer, I guess, before I'm anything else, and I'd be very, very--I'd be very wary of having Governor Palin participate in that investigation.  It is not an unbiased and independent investigation. It shouldn't be presented that way.  That's really very unfair.

MR. BROKAW:  Mayor Giuliani, thank you very much for being with us.

Senator Schumer, thank you for being with us as well today.

Coming up next, the Bush administration and Iraq.  We'll have an insider's look from Bob Woodward.  Plus, the changing battleground in Decision 2008 with NBC political director Chuck Todd.  All that coming up here in a moment.

(Announcements)

MR. BROKAW:  Bob Woodward on Iraq, Chuck Todd on Decision 2008 after this brief station break.

(Announcements)

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