SEN. OBAMA: Right. Well, look, there's no doubt that the situation in Pakistan is, is complicated. I think it was made more complicated by our insistence on providing Musharraf with a lot of military aid, ignoring some of the problems in terms of his anti-democratic practices, and ignoring the fact that the Taliban and al-Qaeda was resurgent in that area. If we are reaching out to the Pakistanis and working with them not only about our security interests, but also about the well-being of the Pakistani people. If we are encouraging democratic practices and human rights and making sure that Supreme Court justices are not kicked off the bench because they're not providing rulings that are of the liking to the military, that will gain more support for our policies in the region and in Pakistan, and hopefully will give more political space for them to act forcefully against the extremists in the region.

MR. BROKAW: Let's move on to Israel, where you got very good notices across the political spectrum from Israeli leaders, but you also met with King Abdullah of Jordan. He recently told The Washington Post, and he's been saying in--this in the United States, as well; when asked if Iran is the number one threat of the region, he said, no, "I think the lack of peace [between Israel and the Palestinians] is the major threat. I don't see the ability of creating a two-state solution beyond 2008, 2009. I think this is really the last chance. If this fails, I think this is going to be a major threat for the Middle East: Are we going to go for another 60 years of `fortress Israel,' or are we going to have a neighborhood where Israel is actually incorporated? That's our major challenge, I'm very concerned that the clock is ticking, that the door is closing on all of us." I'm confident that he said the same thing to you.

SEN. OBAMA: Yes.

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MR. BROKAW: Did you tell him that you would appoint a presidential envoy who would report only to you to work exclusively on the issues of peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis?

SEN. OBAMA: I told him something approximating that. What I told him was that this will be an issue that I don't wait until the last minute to work on, that I want to pick up on some of the progress that has been made coming out of Annapolis. I give the Bush administration credit that the Annapolis process has gotten Prime Minister Olmert in Israel and President Abbas in the Palestinian territories to have very serious and frank discussions. I think they have moved the ball forward. They may not be able to finish the job. They certainly can't finish it without serious participation by the next administration, and we've got to start early.

And, and one thing I want to pick up on, because I think King, King Abdullah is as savvy a analyst of the region and player in the region as, as there is, one of the points that he made and I think a lot of people made, is that we've got to have an overarching strategy recognizing that all these issues are connected. If we can solve the Israeli/Palestinian process, then that will make it easier for Arab states and the Gulf states to support us when it comes to issues like Iraq and Afghanistan.

It will also weaken Iran, which has been using Hamas and Hezbollah as a way to stir up mischief in the region. If we've gotten an Israeli/Palestinian peace deal, maybe at the same time peeling Syria out of the Iranian orbit, that makes it easier to isolate Iran so that they have a tougher time developing a nuclear weapon.

So we've got to take all these issues, and I think the next president has to start very quickly in moving both on the peace process forward and still recognizing that issues like Iran are connected and of extraordinary priority.

MR. BROKAW: You met with a wide variety of Israelis; you only met with Palestinian President Abbas. But you went to an Israeli village that had been shelled. You went to the Holocaust museum. Any number of people have commented on the fact that you really didn't spend any time with Palestinian businessmen or go to a Palestinian family that lost a child to Israeli gunfire. You didn't even get a falafel in east Jerusalem while you were there. Can't you see why anytime an American goes to the Middle East, goes to an Arab capital, on the street or in a corridors of power, they say, "You just do whatever the Israelis want you to do, and the politicians come out here looking for Jewish votes."

SEN. OBAMA: Well, I, I, I don't think that's entirely fair. This is my second trip to Israel and the West Bank. And the first time that I went, I did meet with Palestinian businessmen, I did talk to Palestinian students in Ramallah. When you're in a region for a day, you've got a lot of boxes that you've got to check. And in Israel in particular, a big chunk of our day was meeting with not only the current prime minister, but former prime ministers and a whole bunch of people who intend to be prime minister. And the--it was important for us to make sure that we had covered our bases there.

But the, the larger point I think to be made is this. That the Palestinian people are having a very tough time right now economically, and it is in U.S. interests to make sure that they have a sense of hope and opportunity and a Palestinian state. I think it's in Israelis' interest as well. And what I've said is that we're going to make sure that the Palestinians have the--a state that allows them to prosper as long as we also have certainty that Israel's security is not being compromised. I think it's in the interest of both parties, but we are the critical ingredient in terms of making sure that a deal actually gets done.

MR. BROKAW: Next stop, Berlin. You were a rock star, as you often are when you give a speech. You had some, by estimates, 200,000 people listening to you. Big crowd. Not everyone in America was an admirer. Charles Krauthammer, the conservative columnist said, "He hasn't earned the right to speak there." And David Brooks, for The New York Times, who was an early admirer of your rhetoric in the early stages of the campaign had this to say in his column about your appearance in Berlin:

"When John F. Kennedy and Ronald Reagan went to Berlin, their rhetoric soared, but their optimism was grounded in the reality of politics, conflict and hard choices. Kennedy didn't dream of the universal brotherhood of man. He drew lines that reflected hard realities. Reagan didn't call for a kumbaya moment. He cited tough policies that sparked harsh political disagreements.

"Much of Obama's Berlin speech fed the illusion that we could solve our problems if only people mystically come together. We should help Palestinians and Israelis unite. We should unite to prevent genocide in Darfur. We should unite so the Iranians won't develop nukes.

"The great illusion of the 1990s," according to David Brooks, "was that we were entering an era of global convergence in which politics and power didn't matter. What Obama offered in Berlin flowed right out of that mind-set.

"Since then, autocracies have arisen, the competition for resources has grown fiercer, Russia has clamped down, Iran is on the march. It will take politics and power to address those challenges, the two factors that dare not speak their name in Obama's lofty peroration. ... Obama has benefited form a week of good images. But substantively, optimism without reality isn't eloquence. It's just Disney."

Why didn't you use that occasion to spell out in great detail a sweeping vision of the Obama doctrine?

SEN. OBAMA: Well, let me, let, let...

MR. BROKAW: You're a candidate for president of the United States.

SEN. OBAMA: Let me say first of all, there were a bunch of really good reviews that you didn't, you didn't put up on the screen. I'd, I'd say there were about nine good reviews for every, every bad one. And number two, I think David Brooks is one of my favorite conservatives, but he is a conservative who is supportive of John McCain, so let's, you know, put that out there as, as a caveat.

MR. BROKAW: But get to the point.

SEN. OBAMA: But, but, but, but let's, let's get to the point. No one speech does everything, right? I could have delivered a exhaustive list of policy prescriptions. I suspect that 200,000 people would have slowly drifted off as I entered into the 45th minute of the speech. What I was trying to do was provide some broad themes in terms of where America needs to go and where Europe needs to go. And contrary to David Brooks' suggestion and some of the suggestions of other conservatives, I was, I think, pretty clear about the, the difficulties of, of power and of politics.

When I specifically said that Europeans need to step up and do more in Afghanistan, that wasn't an applause line in Germany. When I talked about the fact that they need to do more in Iraq despite our past differences, that wasn't an applause line in Germany. When I talked about the fact that there has been too much anti-American sentiment and a, and a stereotyping of America in Europe, that wasn't an applause line in Germany, that wasn't a bunch of high-flying rhetoric. So I, I think that, given the purpose that I had, which is to get Europeans to recognize the extraordinary sacrifices that Americans have made on behalf of world freedom and security and to get Americans to recognize we need partners in order to be effective to solve our problems, I would give myself a, a slightly better grade than David Brooks did.

MR. BROKAW: Senator, we're going to give you a chance to make some real news here in a moment. You can talk about the vice presidential choices that may be on your mind.

Click for more from 'Meet the Press'

Obama sticks to his guns on 'Meet the Press'

But we'll have a brief break first, and we'll be back to continue our discussion with Senator Obama, talk about his vice presidential choices, the economy, and also race in America.

(Announcements)

MR. BROKAW: I'll have more from London with Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama after this brief station break.

(Announcements)

CONTINUED

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