'Meet the Press' transcript for July 13, 2008

MR. BROKAW: We're going to get to you in a moment here, Senator McCaskill. Both campaigns have had difficulty this past week with accusations of flip-flopping. Let me begin with Ms. Fiorina.

You said that your candidate, John McCain, he's a man that the American people understands, that he walks the talk. But let me just share with you what I think could be a Democratic ad come this fall. The ad will begin, "Oh really?" after quoting you. "Here's a man who voted against the Bush tax cuts. Now he wants to make them permanent. Here's a man who is worried about global warming, now he wants to give American motorists a gas tax holiday so they can drive even more during the summer months. Here's a man who called Phil Gramm a trusted economic adviser, had him on the bus and in pictures with him. Now he disowns him. Here's a man who said he really wasn't up to speed on the issue of whether birth control should be covered by insurance policies; in fact, he voted against it."

MS. FIORINA: Let me start by saying that Senator McCain, at the time of the Bush tax cuts, proposed his own tax cuts which would provide even greater relief to the middle class. The principal reason that he voted against the Bush tax cuts is because they were not accompanied by fiscal restraint, and he said at the time that we would be growing our federal budget deficit. Which, in fact, we did. Federal spending has increased by 60 percent over the last seven years, and he believes government has to get its house in order. He also has said that he would double the exemption for dependents from $3500 to $7,000, that he would phase out the alternative minimum tax. With all due respect to advisers, it was also Senator Barack Obama who disowned his own pastor of 20 years. So there are times when people have to make clear their own positions vs. the positions of others, and John McCain did so with respect to Phil Gramm.

MR. BROKAW: Senator McCaskill, your own candidate has had his own difficulties this past week in explaining his positions, sometimes in the same day. Let's begin with a well-known, now, sound bite about what he would do in Iraq. He's planning a trip there. This is what he had to say two weeks ago in Fargo, North Dakota, something that you supported in the same day in Kansas City. Here's Senator Obama talking about his plans for Iraq.

(Videotape, July 3, 2008)

SEN. OBAMA: I've always said that I would listen to commanders on the ground. I've always said that the pace of withdrawal would be dictated by the safety and security of our troops and the need to maintain stability. That assessment has not changed, and when I go to Iraq and I have a chance to talk to some of the commanders on the ground, I'm sure I'll have more information and will continue to refine my policies.

(End videotape)

MR. BROKAW: And later that same day, as you know, Senator Obama called the press together again because he wanted to clarify, as he put it, his earlier remarks. Here's what he had to say at that time.

(Videotape)

SEN. OBAMA: I intend to end this war my first day in office. I will bring the Joint Chiefs of Staff in and I will give them a new mission, and that is to end this war responsibly, deliberately, but decisively. And I have seen no information that contradicts the notion that we can bring our troops out safely at a pace of one to two brigades per month, and again, that pace translates into having our, our combat troops out in 16 months' time.

(End videotape)

MR. BROKAW: That confused even some of his most ardent supporters. If he goes to Iraq, and commanders on the ground, to whom he says he will listen, say, "Look, we could use 20 months, or maybe even 24 months," will he stick to his 16-month timetable in calling the Joint Chiefs in the day after he's inaugurated?

SEN. CLAIRE McCASKILL (D-MO): Listen, there is nothing inconsistent about Barack Obama's position on Iraq. From the very beginning of this campaign, he has said very clearly his mindset is we must get out as carefully and as quickly as possible. There is nothing that he has said that contradicts that. Part of getting out carefully and quickly is listening to commanders on the ground. No commander in chief would ever say, "I'm not going to listen to the guys on the ground." And that's all he said is he's going to listen in terms of how we get out. But the mindsets are very different here. You have Barack Obama saying we simply cannot afford, either from a position of national security or our economy, to keep borrowing $10 billion dollars a month from China to be mired in this civil conflict in Iraq, whereas John McCain's position, his mindset is very clear, "We're going to stay, and we're not going to change in terms of our position in Iraq." So we have two different mindsets, and I think most Americans understand that.

MR. BROKAW: But, let me be clear about this, he says he'll listen to commanders on the ground. He's going there. But before he goes there, he says, "The day after I'm inaugurated, I'll have Joint Chiefs in the office with instructions to get them out in 16 months."

SEN. McCASKILL: But...

MR. BROKAW: So the real question is why even go if you know that you want to do that in advance?

SEN. McCASKILL: Well, of course. He, he has a goal of 16 months, but obviously, the most important thing in getting out...

MR. BROKAW: But that could stretch.

SEN. McCASKILL: ...is to do it carefully. It--I mean, obviously, a goal is a goal, and he's been very clear that that's a goal. He's been very clear that he wants to be careful and reasonable about the way--in fact, his phrase is, "I want to be the opposite of what we were when we went in. We were reckless and careless when we went in. We didn't plan." And by the way, there is--talk about a shifting position, I mean, John McCain used to be very positive about George Bush's leadership in Iraq.

MR. BROKAW: Mm-hmm.

SEN. McCASKILL: As he gets closer to this presidential election, he was not as positive. And, and I hope we have a chance to transition back to the economy for a minute...

MR. BROKAW: We will.

SEN. McCASKILL: ...because there's a very clear difference between the two economic plans. One represents change and one doesn't.

MR. BROKAW: But for--just so that we can clarify, the 16 months is his goal, not a promise to the American people?

SEN. McCASKILL: Sixteen months is his goal. It would be irresponsible for a commander in chief to set in stone a date. But he believes, based on the best of military advice that he has gotten, that one to two brigades a month is reasonable. And I believe that that is his commitment to the American people, and he will keep that commitment to the American people.

MR. BROKAW: Let's begin now with the economy and the federal budget. Both campaigns have different views of what they can do in the next four years and in the next eight years. To go back to Senator McCain for just a moment...

MS. FIORINA: Mm-hmm.

MR. BROKAW: First he said he could balance the federal budget within four years, and then he said no, it'll take eight years. Now he's back to four years again. If you were the CEO of Hewlett-Packard again and you were talking to Wall Street analysts and you would say, "I'm going to cut taxes. I'm going to continue to have wars in two countries. We have a housing crisis that we're probably going to have to bail out. We have a $410 billion deficit. We have entitlement costs that now represent 53 percent of our federal budget that are going up every year. But I can balance the budget," you'd be hooted off the phone, and they'd put a big sell sign on Hewlett-Packard the next morning, wouldn't they?

MS. FIORINA: Actually, I don't think so. And, as a business person, I do pay attention to the numbers, and there is a plan to balance the budget by 2013. It begins with the most important component, which is that we have to get this economy growing again. Not growing as quickly as it was, for example, during the boom years, although that would be terrific. But our assumptions are quite conservative, and that is that we can get the economy growing at somewhere between 2 and 3 percent. That's not huge. But we are going to get the economy growing again by creating the right kind of environment for job creation. That includes, by the way, not raising taxes on middle income, as Barack Obama would do; on small business, as Barack Obama would do. It means that we would not resort to isolationism, as Barack Obama would do. It also involves getting federal spending under control. As a business person, I know that when you have spending increase by 60 percent in seven years, you have a lot of opportunity for cutting spending.

And finally, it involves making sure that, as we bring troops out of Iraq, which John McCain is also committed to do--however, unlike Barack Obama, he actually has spoken to generals on the ground, he has met with General Petraeus, he has traveled to the region eight times. And so when he says that all of the savings from bringing troops home will be applied to the reduction of the federal budget deficit, he actually does know what he's talking about. So, yes, the numbers do add. We have to get the economy growing, we have to reduce and get under control out of control federal spending, and we have to use the savings from troop reductions in Iraq to lower the federal budget deficit.

MR. BROKAW: And, Senator McCaskill, independent analysts who have looked at Senator Obama's plan for the next eight years, as he extends it out, say, "The problem ... is that the Democrats have been very critical of President Bush for spending hundreds of billions of dollars on the war without paying for it and running up the deficit. ... But in effect what Obama is saying is, `I'm going to spend the same amount of money. I'm just going to spend it on something else.'" Other analysts have said, when they look at his plan, his revenues are about half of what he is going to need, because he's not going to be able to pay for all the things that he's promised the American people.

SEN. McCASKILL: Well, first of all, he has ways to pay for what he is promising. And it is much different than John McCain's economic plan. Barack Obama will not raise taxes on anyone whose incomes are under $250,000. Now, what he is going to do, he's going to take the very thinnest sliver at the top, and he's going to say to that thin sliver at the top, "We're going to put you back at a tax rate that happened before George Bush. We're going to put you back at that"--for like 2 percent of the country. The rest of the country, 95 percent of the working people in America, are going to get a tax cut from Barack Obama. You know, John McCain's tax cuts are not for middle America. John McCain's economic policy was drafted in a corporate boardroom. Barack Obama's economic policy was drafted at a kitchen table. It is about the families in America that are hurting. It's about a square deal for the workers. You know, Tom, in our country right now the average CEO of a, of a corporation makes 400 times the average worker's salary. In Japan they make 10 times. Now, this is a country we're competing with. This is a country we're borrowing money from.

MR. BROKAW: Are you suggesting that Senator Obama can do something about corporate pay?

SEN. McCASKILL: I, I, I believe he has proposals about making shareholders approve it. But most importantly what he's saying is we've got to quit doing this divide between the mega wealthy. We got to quit drafting economic policies that are all about the mega wealthy and instead get back to making college more affordable, no more taxes for seniors that make less than $50,000, and, in fact, being responsible about that. If anybody believes that John McCain can balance the budget on his plan right now, I've got a meeting they need to have with the tooth fairy. There is no way. Because he is counting the money from not fighting the war in Iraq, but yet he's saying we're going to stay in Iraq.

MR. BROKAW: But Senator Obama, balancing the budget is not a high priority for him. He's prepared to live with the deficits for the first four years of his term. And if he gets a second term, for another eight years, if necessary?

SEN. McCASKILL: Well, he is going to be responsible. I mean, just look at this week. I don't know how John McCain would have voted on fixing Medicare, because he didn't come to vote. Barack Obama did. And the statement he gave kind of took both sides. Well, there was part of it he liked and part of it he didn't like. The part that he didn't like was a modest hit on private insurance companies that made $15 billion last year on the backs of taxpayers. I mean, if you cannot stand up for a modest hit--they made 15 billion last year, taxpayer subsidized. John McCain's tax cuts include 1.2 billion for ExxonMobil. Give me a break. I...

MR. BROKAW: Where, where, where's Senator Obama going to cut spending?

SEN. McCASKILL: Well, he's going to--obviously going to have to cut spending when it--in, in some ways, in, in the defense, in terms of the war in Iraq. Now, he wants to use some of that...

MR. BROKAW: Well, wait a minute, cutting spending--almost every military analyst of whatever political stripe says however this war ends, there are repair jobs to be done...

SEN. McCASKILL: There are repair jobs. And there's no...

MR. BROKAW: ...to be done on the equipment, and you've got to...

SEN. McCASKILL: ...question that some of it...

MR. BROKAW: ...you've got to restore the American military because it's been worn out in so many ways.

SEN. McCASKILL: Some of the war dividend that we will get will go back right into the military, and Barack Obama has proposed that. But he will, in fact--and, and it was interesting that Carly referred to the boom years. That's when we had a Democratic president and a Democratic Congress. Those were the boom years. And that's the, the years we want to get back to, where we can, in fact, have responsible economic policies that are fair to the middle class, give a square deal to workers, and get us back in a competitive mode by getting all our kids in college.

MS. FIORINA: Tom, since, since budgets are about numbers, let me just throw a few numbers out, if I can. The numbers in Barack Obama's plan just don't add. You cannot possibly pay for over $300 billion in government-mandated programs, which is what he has proposed thus far, and cut taxes on 95 percent of the American people at the same time. The numbers simply don't add. He has said on many occasions that he would pay for his health mandate, for example, which costs between 50 and $65 billion, by raising the capital gains tax rate on Americans $100 million. The reality is, because Obama's words have been, frankly, all over the map in terms of his economic plan, you have to go back to his record. And his record is that he has voted to increase taxes 94 times in his short time in the U.S. Senate. Barack Obama...

MR. BROKAW: In fairness, in fairness...

MS. FIORINA: ...will raise your taxes.

MR. BROKAW: ...economic analysts who are looking at both of these plans say that they don't add up; that you, in fact, can't balance the budget in four years, that, in fact, you cannot get the revenues that you say you can.

MS. FIORINA: Actually, there are a set of...

MR. BROKAW: Both of these candidates began by running by saying that they...

MS. FIORINA: ...economists who believe we can balance the budget in four years.

SEN. McCASKILL: Those are the same economists that don't approve of the gas tax.

MR. BROKAW: Let me ask you about the...

MS. FIORINA: The American people approve of the gas tax holiday. The majority of American people approve of it.

MR. BROKAW: But, but this was the senator who said that he was going to, you know, be different, that he was not going to cave in to whatever was seasonable or might have been...

MS. FIORINA: Actually, I think it was Barack Obama who said he was going to be different. I think what John McCain has is a very long record of standing up to special interests wherever they are, corporate and government. And just as a, a point of correction, John McCain stood up against George Bush and Don Rumsfeld in the prosecution of the Iraq war for many years and took a lot of heat from his own party for it. John McCain has demonstrated...

MR. BROKAW: But he's also the same senator who said that...

MS. FIORINA: ...not by his talk, but by his walk.

MR. BROKAW: ...we may have to be there a hundred years, right?

MS. FIORINA: What he said was that we might have a military presence for a long time, as we do in Japan, as we do in Korea, as we do...

MR. BROKAW: Does he continue to stand by that?

MS. FIORINA: ...in Germany. I think we have--will have a military presence in the Middle East region for a long time.

MR. BROKAW: For a hundred years?

MS. FIORINA: I think there--we've had a military presence in Japan for 60-plus years. No one objects to it. It is part of our ability to protect our interests and to provide stability. But to say that John McCain was aligned with President Bush on the prosecution of the war in Iraq is to change history. And to say that Barack Obama can pay for his plan and still lower taxes on 95 percent of the American people is to ignore the reality of numbers. I'm a business person, I can't do that.

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