'Meet the Press' transcript for June 22, 2008

MR. WILLIAMS:  I want to talk about this nation's dual wars.  The Economist magazine, on their cover and in their text, proffered a theory that, while Americans have been preoccupied with this election season, as they put it right there, "Iraq starts to fix itself." We are just back from Afghanistan. I was there a week ago for a week's worth of reporting, and we were discussing before the broadcast, more than one American commander, while I was there, showed me what they call an HVT, a high value target, predator video on the screen, and then said, "Right now I don't have the `air,'" as they put it, the assets, the fighters, the bombers, the predators, to go get these high-value targets in Afghanistan because, as they put it, the resources are going to the other war.  Now, if we all view Afghanistan as the original conflict growing out of 9/11, Senator Biden, how do you make the argument--do you make the argument in the U.S. Senate of, of, of increasing focus, funding, resources for the war in Afghanistan?  How do you get the public attention?

SEN. BIDEN:  The way you get the public's attention is make them realize that if you're going to continue to keep indefinitely 140,000 troops in Iraq, you're going to spend $3 billion a week in Iraq.  You're going to continue to have 250 casualties a month and 30 to 45 deaths a month even with the reduced violence in Iraq.  You do not, as General--the commanding general in Afghanistan said to me, "I do not have the forces I need here to deal with where al-Qaeda lives, where al-Qaeda resides, where the real threat of terror exists." So there's a price to pay.  We can argue about how quickly we should draw down in Iraq.  There is no argument about the price we pay for staying in Iraq now.  General McCaffrey, "The Army's starting to unravel." Admiral Mullen, "Having forces at the level we have in Iraq doesn't allow us to meet our needs in Afghanistan." General Casey, "Army's out of balance." General Cody, "This exceeds our ability to sustain the supply of soldiers and equipment." General--the list goes on and on and on.  John McCain is viewing this like he is the commander in chief of Iraq.  The president of the United States has larger security concerns than merely Iraq, and there needs to be a balance here.  And you cannot win the war in Afghanistan with the present level of commitment that is unnecessary in Iraq.

MR. WILLIAMS:  Senator Graham, have we allowed the, the, the public focus to shift from what was the original war, after all?

SEN. GRAHAM:  The central battlefront in the war on terror, according to General Petraeus, is Iraq.  The mistakes we made after the invasion were enormous.  For four years John McCain argued with the Bush administration, "We do not have enough troops to secure Iraq." The insurgency grew as a result of chaos and out of control sectarian violence.  John McCain suggested something that no one else suggested, send more troops into Iraq when the polling was clear that America wanted out of Iraq.

MR. WILLIAMS:  But the question's about Afghanistan.

SEN. GRAHAM:  Well, you can't talk about this war unless you talk about Iraq and how it affects Afghanistan in the overall war.  If we had of lost in Iraq, if Iraq had broken in three parts and became chaotic, you would had a Sunni-Shia civil war spread through the region.  The biggest winner of a loss in Iraq would have been Iran, second only to al-Qaeda.  Bin Laden said, "Go to the land of two rivers.  This is the central battle." The Muslim population in Iraq took up arms, with our help, against bin Laden.  They've beaten al-Qaeda's brains out.  Iraq--the surge worked.  It's not working, it has worked.  NATO is in charge of Afghanistan.  Senator Obama's on the Foreign Relations Committee, the subcommittee dealing with oversight of NATO.  He has never held one hearing about Afghanistan.  We're not going to allow the hard work in Iraq to be ignored and not appreciated because we've got growing problems in Afghanistan.  You have to win where the enemy is at.  We are winning in Iraq.  It will help us with Iran, it will help us in the region to defeat al-Qaeda, and NATO needs to help more in Afghanistan.

SEN. BIDEN:  That's all old thinking, why we're in trouble.  First of all, the reason Obama didn't hold a hearing on NATO, I chair the committee.  Every one of those committee hearings are held at full committee, number one. Number two, with regard to General Petraeus, central war on, on, on terrorism, I asked General Petraeus and I asked Ambassador Crocker, before my committee when they're here, "If you have a choice only to eliminate al-Qaeda one place, Afghanistan or Iraq, which do you choose?" Both of them said, obviously, Afghanistan, that's where they live, number one.  Number two, the idea of us pulling down and drawing down in Iraq, that the Iraqis themselves will not eliminate al-Qaeda is bizarre.  The overall thinking here is, as we continue to be bogged down by this old think that Lindsey and John stick to, is the reason why we're in so much trouble to begin with.

MR. WILLIAMS:  Senator Biden, I don't mean to interrupt.

SEN. BIDEN:  No, I understand.

MR. WILLIAMS:  You're in the news yourself this past week.

SEN. BIDEN:  Uh-oh.  What did I do?

MR. WILLIAMS:  You interested in the vice presidency?

SEN. BIDEN:  I am not interested in the vice presidency.

MR. WILLIAMS:  You're not interested in the vice presidency.

SEN. BIDEN:  I'm not interested.

MR. WILLIAMS:  MEET THE PRESS, April 29th, 2007, Tim Russert asks Joe Biden, "You interested in being vice president?" "No, I will not be vice president under any circumstances." But in a different answer, you answered you'd have to say yes.  I don't know, so...

SEN. BIDEN:  Well, no.  The bottom--look, the--when I was asked that question, I thought I was still going to be president.  Now--number one, I, I am not interested in being vice president.  I've let the candidate know.  If the candidate asks me to be vice president, the answer is I got to say yes. But he's not going to ask me.  Look, you cannot walk away...

MR. WILLIAMS:  Now...

SEN. BIDEN:  ...when your party--if the party nominee asked him to be vice...

MR. WILLIAMS:  Is that a rule out or a rule in?

SEN. BIDEN:  No, it--no, it's--I don't--I'm not interested.  I'm--my--I answer your question honestly.

MR. WILLIAMS:  But if asked?

SEN. BIDEN:  Unlike most other people, I'm being straight with you.  If asked, I will do it.  I've made it clear I do not want to be asked.

MR. WILLIAMS:  Do not want to be asked.  But if asked, the answer, of course, would be yes.

SEN. BIDEN:  Of course it would, because the--if the president--if the presidential nominee thought I could help him win, am I going to say to the first African-American candidate about to make history in the world that, "No, I will not help you out like you want me to"?  Of course, I'm--I'll say yes.

MR. WILLIAMS:  On that note, we will thank both senators who, by the way, are up for re-election in...

SEN. GRAHAM:  What, what a country.  What a country.

MR. WILLIAMS:  ...their respective states.  Senator Graham, Senator Biden. Gentlemen, thank you for coming by this Sunday morning.

SEN. BIDEN:  Thank you.

SEN. GRAHAM:  Thank you very much.

SEN. BIDEN:  Thank you.

MR. WILLIAMS:  Coming up next, as our broadcast continues, the very latest inside the Obama and McCain campaigns.  John Harwood of CNBC and The New York Times, and our own Andrea Mitchell of NBC News are here next, only on MEET THE PRESS.

(Announcements)

MR. WILLIAMS:  Our political roundtable after this brief station break.

(Announcements)

MR. WILLIAMS:  We're back with two friends, John Harwood and Andrea Mitchell.

Welcome to you both.

MS. ANDREA MITCHELL:  Thank you, Brian.

MR. WILLIAMS:  And let's have some raw numbers this Sunday morning.  The form of this Newsweek poll that's been getting some play over the past 24, 48 hours.  In the presidential straight up, Obama 51, McCain 36.  This collides with a lot of the polling, even in the days since Obama has been the presumed nominee.

John, you first.  What do you think's going on here?

MR. JOHN HARWOOD:  Well, I think until we see other polls showing margins like that, we've got to assume that this is an outlier.  But we have seen Barack Obama's lead creep up since he wrapped up the nomination, Hillary Clinton got out of the race.  Conditions for Democrats around the country would justify a lead like that.  It's tremendously a beneficial atmosphere for Democrats when President Bush is unpopular, there's so much anxiety about the war, so much anxiety about the economy.  I think the drama of the summer is going to be how much of a lead can Barack Obama build or is there resistance because of his inexperience, perhaps because he breaks his word on something like campaign finance, as Lindsey Graham was making that argument, and maybe some racial resistance as well?  John McCain has his own strengths, but Barack Obama, how much can he take advantage of this favorable environment for Democrats?

MR. WILLIAMS:  Is campaign finance, though, announced late in the first week of summer, going to resonate with folks?  Is that one of those--the trickle down issues that people, that people get their arms around and care about?

MS. MITCHELL:  Well, in fact, the campaign is hoping that it is not, that it is the kind of inside-the-Beltway issue that doesn't resonate.  But, as you saw just now with Lindsey Graham and Joe Biden, you saw the outlines of the campaign.  That is what, what Lindsey Graham did was to try to say, "You see, he's not the real deal.  He's not authentic.  You don't really know this guy. He doesn't represent reform, new politics.  He breaks his word.  You can't trust him." That's what they will claim, and they'll use something like his going back on his word on this and try to make it into a big deal.  You heard John McCain say, his immediate response when he was out in Iowa, "This is a big deal.  This is a big deal."

MR. WILLIAMS:  Mm-hmm.

MS. MITCHELL:  He repeated it twice.  So they're going to try to--see, and that's going to be what we have--you know, whether people respond to that.  I think, as John does, and you hear this from the Republicans, that the Newsweek numbers don't have the right weighting, that there's a sampling error.  We'll see whether this is borne out, because it does conflict with earlier polls from the week before and from two weeks ago, our own poll, which showed less of a balance for Obama than you would have expected because we have all of this anger against the Republicans, we have all these headwinds against John McCain.  It should not be as tight a race as the earlier polls were indicating.

MR. WILLIAMS:  And because the Obama campaign is reading all of this, and the op-ed pages, and feeling like they still need to introduce their man to a whole lot of Americans, especially in certain states, they're out with this ad.

(Videotape)

SEN. OBAMA:  (From ad) I'm Barack Obama.  America's a country of strong families and strong values.  My life's been blessed by both.  I approved this message because I'll never forget those values.  And if I have the honor of taking the oath of office as president, it will be with a deep and abiding faith in the country I love.

(End videotape)

MR. WILLIAMS:  Note all those terms in there.  And when we talk about campaign finance and the big money in politics, this is what the big money buys.  Take a look at the map, take a look at the ad buy.  Now, look at all those red states.  They are, by my calculation, Alaska, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Virginia.

John, do they know something the American people don't?  Because those were all in the Bush category last time around.  What's going on here?

MR. HARWOOD:  Well, they know that Democrats have got a wave behind them. Part of it's an anti-Bush wave, part of it's the economy and the war, as we talked about before.  I think this is a feeling out period, Brian, where the campaign, using this incredible financial resources they have, can test and see, "Can we play in Georgia?  How well can we play in Virginia or New Mexico or Nevada?" All of those things are the luxuries that you get by breaking your word on campaign financing.  The public does not care, by the way, about the details of how you finance your campaign.  The only question is can McCain make him pay a price in credibility and trustworthiness on that?  But Barack Obama, I think, also we noticed, unless my eyes were deceiving me, that was a flag pin on his lapel.  We have seen many tone changes from Barack Obama since he wrapped up the nomination--on taxes, said he might cut corporate taxes, might delay some tax hike; says he's a "free trader"; he made the decision on campaign finance.  Look at this terror deal that went through the Congress and is going to be passed.  That's a way of taking an issue off the table, and in the pragmatism that Barack Obama is displaying here, Democrats love the, the split personality that David Brooks...

MR. WILLIAMS:  Mm-hmm.

MR. HARWOOD:  ...my friend wrote about in his column.  Liberals love that, and they're seeing, potentially, in Barack Obama, somebody, as your rock hero and Tim Russert's might say, was "born to run" in this campaign.

MS. MITCHELL:  And you saw in that ad where it's like "faith in the country." You know, he--every touchstone was, was touched.  And as, as he claims to do one thing and does a little bit of another, he is showing a pragmatism that some people will find suspicious.  It will create some problems, and the Republicans are going to try to explore it.  You heard Joe Biden try to defend the decision on campaign finance by saying, "Look, he's got 1.4 million individual, small donors."

MR. WILLIAMS:  He's merely responding to the American people.  Right.

MS. MITCHELL:  But, at the same time, the Center for Responsive Politics points out that 55 percent of his contributors are bigger donors.  That's not something they point out very often.

MR. HARWOOD:  Barack Obama is not doing this to advance the cause of campaign finance reform.  That's one thing for sure.

MS. MITCHELL:  Right.

MR. WILLIAMS:  One state poll...

MS. MITCHELL:  By the way, I just--I do think it's a head feint.  I--he's not going to--he doesn't expect to win Montana and the other places that they are running this ad.  This is to tie McCain down and make him spend money, and tie him in places that he ought to be able to take for granted.

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