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MEET THE PRESS NBC NEWS (202)885-4598 (Sundays: (202)885-4200)
MR. TIM RUSSERT:
Our issues this Sunday, only
48 hours
until the
Indiana
and
North Carolina
primaries. The epic
Clinton
and
Obama
battle continues. Issues such as the Reverend
Jeremiah Wright
and the soaring cost of gasoline and food prices dominate the debate. With us for the full hour, an exclusive interview with Democratic
presidential candidate
Senator Barack Obama
.
Senator Obama
, welcome back to
MEET THE PRESS
.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL):
Thank you so much for having me.
MR. RUSSERT:
On Friday you said, "It's been a rough couple of weeks." An understatement. What has the controversy over Reverend
Jeremiah Wright
done to your
campaign
?
SEN. OBAMA:
Well, obviously it's distracted us. I mean, we ended up spending a lot of time talking about Reverend
Wright
instead of talking about
gas prices
and food prices and the situation in
Iraq
. And so it, it's, it wasn't welcome. But, you know, I think that the
American people
understand
that when I joined
Trinity United Church
of
Christ
, I was committing not to Pastor
Wright
, I was committing to a
church
and I was committing to
Christ.
And it is a wonderful
church
. It's a member of the
United Church of Christ
, a denomination that dates back to the battles around abolition. It has lived out, I think the, the
social gospel
by dealing with poverty and providing shelter to the homeless and, and working on critical issues that make me very proud. And, as a consequence, when Reverend
Wright
, who married me and baptized our, our children, when he made those statements, or I learned of those statements that I found so objectionable, I, I felt that they didn't define him. And so I spoke in
Philadelphia
about these issues and tried to construct, you know, a, a conversation about issues of race. But when I saw, this week, him come out and speak in a way that was just as divisive, that didn't explain or apologize, but rather worsened some of the comments that he had made previously, I felt it was very important to make
clear
that that's not who I am, that's not who I
stand
for. I don't think it represented well the
church
or the
African-American
church
. And I had to make a
clear
statement. Hopefully we've been able to put it behind us.
MR. RUSSERT:
You're still a member of the
church
?
SEN. OBAMA:
I am.
MR. RUSSERT:
Why do you think he re-emerged?
SEN. OBAMA:
You know, you'd have to ask him. I, I, I think that it's possible, as a consequence of him retiring, that having the spotlight was something attractive to him. It may -- obviously, he felt that he had been attacked, and, and that's an understandable
human emotion
. But what I think he didn't recognize was that, that the very things that our
church
has advocated for --
social justice
, dealing effectively with issues like poverty -- that those are the issues that are stake -- at stake right now. And the only way we're going to solve them is to bring the
country
together. What he said did not bring the
country
together; it divided the
country
. It fed into all of the racial antagonisms and divisions that have haunted this
country
for so long, and, you know, I did not want to give a platform for that. I didn't want my presidential
campaign
to be associated with that, and that's what we tried to make
clear
this week.
MR. RUSSERT:
What is confusing to some people is why it took so long. This is what you said back in March in
Philadelphia
. Let's watch.
SEN. OBAMA:
As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me. He strengthens my faith, officiated my wedding, and baptized my children.
I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can disown my white grandmother.
MR. RUSSERT:
And yet, less than five weeks later, you have said something much different. Let's watch that.
SEN. OBAMA:
I am outraged by the comments that were made, and saddened over the spectacle that we saw yesterday. His comments were not only divisive and destructive, but I believe that they end up giving comfort to those who prey on hate.
They offend me, they rightly offend all
Americans
, and they should be denounced. And that's what I'm doing very clearly and unequivocally here today.
MR. RUSSERT:
What happened in those five weeks? Because you already knew, prior to the March speech, that he had suggested the
U.S. government
created the
AIDS virus
; you knew he went to
Libya
with
Louis Farrakhan
; you knew about his
hate speech
on
September 11th
, about the chickens
coming home
to roost and other things. What did you learn in those five weeks that you didn't know in March?
SEN. OBAMA:
Well, you know, previously, there were a bunch of sermons that had been spliced from a collection of sermons for 30 years. And that's not who I
thought
he was. That's not what I
thought
defined him. He's somebody who's a Marine, he's somebody who has served on
city colleges
boards, somebody who was a respected pillar in the community. And so I
thought
it was important to -- for him to explain or at least provide some context for some of the things that he had said previously. But when he came out at the press conference of the
National Press Club
, not only did he amplify some of those comments and defend them vigorously, but he added to it. He put gasoline on the fire. And what that told me was not only was he interested in using this platform to continue to make statements that I fundamentally disagree with and that offend me, but also that he didn't have much regard for the moment that we're in right now here in the
United States
where we can't be distracted or engaged in this divisive, hateful
language
. Instead, we've got to bring the
country
together to solve problems. And, so in that sense, what became apparent to me was he didn't know me as well as I
thought
he did, and I certainly didn't
know him as well as I
thought
I did. And, and that, you know, was disappointing, but something that I had to clearly speak out about.
MR. RUSSERT:
The critics have said he can attack the
United States of America
, he can do all sorts of things that divide the
country
, but only when he made it politically uncomfortable for you did you finally separate himself from him.
SEN. OBAMA:
Oh, I think it, back several weeks ago, it was already pretty politically comfortable, you know, when his statements were being looped on cable stations
24 hours a day
for about five straight days. That was already politically uncomfortable, and -- but, you know, I did what I
thought
was right, which was to denounce the words, not denounce the man.
You know, what, what really changed was a sense that he was going to double down on the statements that he had made before, and, and to me that told, that, that indicated to me that he was not -- that he did not share my fundamental belief and my fundamental
values
in terms of bringing the
country
together and moving forward, and the pride that I've got for this
country
. And, you know, one thing that I want to make absolutely
clear
is that what's best about this
country
, what, what leads me to run for president is that we've been a force for good in the world. We have obviously made mistakes -- and I spoke about this in
Philadelphia
-- we have a tragic history when it comes to race. But that doesn't define us, and it certainly doesn't define me. And I don't want his words to somehow distract from what I think are the opportunities for us to move this
country
forward in, in ways that continue on the progress that we've made in the past.
MR. RUSSERT:
When you announced your candidacy back in February of '07 in
Springfield
...
SEN. OBAMA:
Mm-hmm.
MR. RUSSERT:
...the same
place
Abraham Lincoln
announced his candidacy -- and we're showing it there on the screen -- Reverend
Wright
was going to give the invocation, he was disinvited. He told
The New York Times
that you said to him, "You get kind of rough in the sermons, so we decided it's best for you not to be out there in public." And you cited a
Rolling Stone
interview...
SEN. OBAMA:
Right.
MR. RUSSERT:
...where he said that one of the essential facts about the
U.S.
is, "We believe in
white supremacy
and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God." Now, that is so contrary to a speech I heard you gave yesterday about one nation, one people.
SEN. OBAMA:
Right.
MR. RUSSERT:
So you knew in '07...
SEN. OBAMA:
Right.
MR. RUSSERT:
..."This guy's a problem. I have to keep him out of the spotlight involving my
campaign
."
SEN. OBAMA:
Right. Sure.
MR. RUSSERT:
Why didn't you just say then, "You know, Reverend, we're going on different paths because this
country
does not believe in
white supremacy
and black inferiority."
SEN. OBAMA:
Right. Well, my commitment, as I said,
Tim
, is to the
church
, not to a pastor. And I think that's shared by millions of people who are going to
church
this morning. You, you join a
church
community, and Reverend
Wright
helped build a wonderful
church
community, one that has been a pillar of good works in
Chicago
, and, you know, I feel a great loyalty to that
church
. Reverend
Wright
was going to be retiring in a year, and I
thought
it was important for me to maintain my commitment to that
church
.
MR. RUSSERT:
He said in a letter to
The New York Times
, he suggested that you apologized for not letting him do the invocation. Is that true?
SEN. OBAMA:
Well, what happened was is that, you know, I was sorry that he felt, that he felt hurt by that decision. And, you know, that is -- that may be a fault of mine that I own up to, which is, is that I'm concerned about how other people feel, particularly somebody who I've known for quite some time. But, but that doesn't detract from, you know, my belief that, ultimately, what he has represent -- what he has been saying about the
United States
over the last several months and over the last several years, particularly some of the statements that I had not heard before, are contrary to who I am and what I
stand
for. And, look, I think it's important to, to put this in context,
Tim
. You know, I'm somebody who is born to a white mother and a, and an African father. It's in my
DNA
to believe that we can bring this
country
together and that the people are the same under the skin. And that's what I've been fighting for all my life, and, you know, the -- to, to a large degree, everything that I've done as a
community organizer
, everything that I've done as a
state
legislator and a
United States senator
embodies those ideals that we can get people who look differently or speak differently or come from different experiences to recognize what they have in common. That is a set of principles that I think Reverend
Wright
was dismissing and diminishing, and that's why, ultimately, you know, I had to forcefully
state
how wrong I
thought
he was.
MR. RUSSERT:
You're new to the national political scene. Is it fair for people to raise questions about your judgment for misjudging Reverend
Wright
?
SEN. OBAMA:
Well, I, I think it's fair for people to look at this episode along with all the other things that I've done over the last 20 years. You know, when you're running for president, your life's an open book, and I think that people have a right to flip the hood and kick the tires, and, and this is one element of a much larger track record that has led me to not only run for president, but to help build a movement all across the
country
to bring about
change
. I ultimately trust the
American people
that they'll put this in context and they'll say, "You know what? This is not who
Barack Obama
is. It's not what he stood for. It's not what he's said. It's not what he's written." And so I think a lot of people
understand
that, you know, you have people in your lives over periods of time. They
change
sometimes, they may go off in a different direction. Sometimes the rupture in relationships may be painful, but they're necessary. And, and that's what's happened here.
MR. RUSSERT:
You're done with him? If you're elected president, you won't seek his counsel?
SEN. OBAMA:
Absolutely not. Now, I think it's important to keep in mind,
Tim
, that I never sought his counsel when it came to politics. And I -- you know, some, some of the reporting that implies that somehow he's my spiritual advisor or mentor, as he himself said, overstated things. He was my pastor, and he built a terrific
church
. I'm proud of that
church
. We've got a wonderful young pastor who's there who's doing -- continuing the terrific work that the
church
does. And that's my commitment. My commitments are to the
values
of that
church
, my commitment is to
Christ
; it's not to Reverend
Wright
.
MR. RUSSERT:
Could you have handled this better, differently, by severing your ties earlier? And what's the most important thing you've learned from this?
SEN. OBAMA:
Well, when you're in national politics, it's always good to pull the
Band-Aid
off quick, and I think that's what, you know, the, the, the political consultants will tell you. But life's messy sometimes, and, you know, it's not always neat, and things don't proceed in textbook
Political
101 fashion. And so, you know, when I reflect back, you know, what I'm proud of is that, in the speech in
Philadelphia
, I think I made a contribution to the overall dialogue about how we deal with race in
America
. And I think that me denouncing his words without denouncing him was, at the time, the right thing to do. You know, I'm, I'm sorry that he didn't see an opportunity for him to reflect on the justifiable anger and pain that he had caused and to maybe, you know, suggest to the
American people
that's not, that's not what he believed. But, clearly, you know, one of the things when you're running for president is that you don't have -- all this stuff is happening under a spotlight, and you've got to
deal with it
quickly.
MR. RUSSERT:
You were in
North Carolina
on Tuesday, on Tuesday and talked about the tone of the
campaign
over the last few weeks. Let's listen.
SEN. OBAMA:
The other candidates aren't talking about their ideas, they're talking about me. So they're talking about, they're, they're, they're talking about what, what -- who, who is he? And do we know his
values
, and he's not wearing a flag pin right now and, you know, his former pastor said some crazy stuff.
MR. RUSSERT:
You basically are outlining the kind of ads that you anticipate being run against you. In
2004
,
John Kerry
was swiftboated.
SEN. OBAMA:
Hm.
MR. RUSSERT:
People challenged his patriotism, challenged his record in the
U.S. military
. When independent groups, so-called, come after you in the fall...
SEN. OBAMA:
Right.
MR. RUSSERT:
...if you're the nominee...
SEN. OBAMA:
Right.
MR. RUSSERT:
...and they talk about the flag pin and about your wife
Michelle
's comment about being proud for the first time in her adult life as an American, and talk about Reverend
Wright
saying, "
God damn
America
," and talk about standing at the
national anthem
at the steak fry and not putting your hand over your heart, all those things, challenging your patriotism...
SEN. OBAMA:
Mm-hmm.
MR. RUSSERT:
...many superdelegates, undecided ones, have said to me, "Is he tough enough?"
SEN. OBAMA:
Mm-hmm.
MR. RUSSERT:
"How is he going to respond? How is he going to defend or define his patriotism?"
SEN. OBAMA:
Right.
MR. RUSSERT:
What's the answer?
SEN. OBAMA:
Well, first of all, you know, I have never challenged other people's patriotism. I haven't challenged
Hillary Clinton
's or
John McCain
's, and I will not
stand
by and allow somebody else to challenge mine. The fact that I'm running for president right now is an indication of how much I love this
country
, because it has given everything to me. This
country
has been a great source of good. I've lived overseas and seen the difference between
America
and what it stands for and what other countries oftentimes
stand
for and where they fall short. I've, I've said before, my story's not possible in any other
country
on earth. You know, when I think about this
country
, I think about my grandfather fighting in
World War II
in
Patton
's army; I think about my grandmother staying home -- staying back and, and working on a bomber
assembly line
while she was raising a kid in -- as, as they're coming out of a depression. And, and so this
country
is the -- it defines, for me, what's possible for not just me, but for so many people who see this as a beacon of good, including my father, who originally came here seeking an education in this
country
. So I love this
country
. It is what I have been fighting for, a -- that
America
lives up to its
values
and its ideals. And that's what I think the people of
Indiana
and that's what the people of
North Carolina
are looking for right now. What, what -- they love this
country
as well, but what they've believe is that the
values
that have built this
country
, the belief in -- that hard work is rewarded, that you can raise a family and have
health care
, and buy a home and retire with dignity and respect, that those things feel like they're
slipping away
. And what this
campaign
's about, what I think this moment is about in
America
is whether or not we are going to fight for those ideals that make this
country
great, and, and if we miss that opportunity, then I think we will be doing a disservice to
future generations
. So I'm happy to have a debate, an argument with the
Republican Party
or any of my opponents about what this
country
means, what makes it great. And what makes it great, ultimately, is its people and how the
American people
are able to live out their
American dream
. And right now, all too often
Washington
is failing in helping them to live out that
American dream
, and I -- that's what I think this election's going to be about in November.
MR. RUSSERT:
The
National Journal
says that in 26 of the 29 contests you've been involved in you have lost white voters who do not have
college
degrees. How do you connect with them? What's wrong?
SEN. OBAMA:
Well, you know, first of all, I think we got to give
Senator Clinton
some credit. I mean, she's a pretty formidable candidate, and she possesses the best
brand name
in Democratic politics. And her and her husband have been campaigning actively. People have fond memories of some of the work that they did in the '90s. And so the fact that she has won some of those contests in some demographic groups shouldn't be surprising. I mean, I'm the underdog. I, I came into this thing with everybody anticipating that we would be
blown away
. And if I was worrying about polls and, you know, some of this, some of this analysis, I probably wouldn't have gotten into the race in the first
place
. What's remarkable is how well we've done.
Now, what I do believe is that it is important for the
American people
to
understand
my story and how it connects to theirs. I think it's important for people to
understand
not only that I was raised by a
single mom
and, and my grandparents, and the
values
of hard work and decency and honesty that they've passed on to me, that those are
values
that are rooted in the heartland of
America
and small-town
America
. My, my wife,
Michelle
, you mentioned earlier, you know, when I think about her father, who worked as a shift worker for the city of
Chicago
, despite having
MS
, got up every single day and went to work, was able to raise a family and send his two kids to
college
and, and support a family of four on a single salary. I think about your father and the fact that, that your dad,
Tim
, looked nothing like
Michelle
's dad, but they lived that same
American dream
and, and they had those same core
values
. And those are the
values
of millions of people all across the
country
. And my job in this
campaign
is to communicate the fact that not only are those
values
at the core of what this
country
's about, not only are those
values
what make me patriotic, but those are the
values
that have to be fought for because that
American dream
is
slipping away
.
Those same individuals who are like
Michelle
's dad, who are like my grandparents, who are like your dad, they can't make it now doing the same things that they used to do. No matter how hard they work, they're falling behind. No matter how hard they work, they're at risk of losing their home or losing their pension. That's what this
campaign
's about, and that's what we've been fighting for, and, and that's why, ultimately, I'm confident not only are we going to win this nomination, but I also believe that we're going to win this
general election
because that is what the
American people
understand
. Unless we are able to create the kinds of opportunities for ordinary
Americans
that have been
slipping away
over the last seven years, with wages and incomes actually going down even during an economic expansion, then, you know, we're not going to pass on the kind of
America
to our children that we want to.
MR. RUSSERT:
One issue that has really defined the two campaigns here in
Indiana
is this debate over gasoline...
SEN. OBAMA:
Right.
MR. RUSSERT:
...the price of it and whether there should be a
tax holiday
...
SEN. OBAMA:
Right.
MR. RUSSERT:
...from the federal taxes. This is
Hillary Clinton
's ad talking about you. Let's watch.
Narrator: Now
gas prices
are skyrocketing, and she's ready to act again.
Hillary
's plan, use the windfall profits of the
oil companies
to pay to suspend the
gas tax
this summer.
Barack Obama
says no, again.
People are hurting, it's time for a president who's ready to take action now.
MR. RUSSERT:
Why are you against giving taxpayers in
Indiana
,
North Carolina
, a relief from federal
gasoline tax
this summer?
SEN. OBAMA:
You're right,
Tim
, this defines, I think, the difference between myself and
Senator Clinton
. This
gas tax
, which was first proposed by
John McCain
and then quickly adopted by
Senator Clinton
, is a classic
Washington
gimmick. It, it is a political response to a serious problem that we have neglected for decades. Now, here's, here's the upshot. You're looking at suspending a
gas tax
for three months. The average driver would save 30 cents per day for a grand total of $28. That's assuming that the
oil companies
don't step in and raise prices by the same amount that the tax has been reduced. And, by the way, I have some experience on this because in
Illinois
we tried this when I was in the
state legislature
, and that's exactly what happened. The
oil companies
, the retailers were the ones who ended up benefiting.
MR. RUSSERT:
You voted for it, too.
SEN. OBAMA:
I did. Exactly. And that...
MR. RUSSERT:
When gas was only $2 a gallon.
SEN. OBAMA:
And, and that's my point. I voted for it, and then six months later we took a look, and consumers had not benefited at all, but we had lost revenue.
MR. RUSSERT:
So you learned from a wrong vote.
SEN. OBAMA:
Yeah, I learned from a mistake. And, in addition, what happens is, is that this would come out of the Federal
Highway Fund
that we use to rebuild our roads and our bridges. And if we don't have that fund, then we're looking at thousands of jobs being lost in
Indiana
and in
North Carolina
.
Now,
Senator Clinton
says that she's going to use the
windfall profits tax
to fill it. First of all, she's already said that she's going to use the
windfall profits tax
for something else, as I have, and, and that is to invest in
clean energy
and, and other important measures. So that money, she's already spending twice. More importantly, nobody thinks that
George Bush
is actually going to spend -- or is actually going to sign a law for windfall profits taxes, so that's not going to happen this summer.
So what this is, is a strategy to get through the next election. And
Senator Clinton
's own staff told
The Washington Post
, "We don't think this is really going to go anywhere. We don't think it's going to work, but we think it's a good issue to use in a
campaign
." And that's what
Washington
does. We, we, we don't deal with the serious issues that are in
front
of us, we try to figure out what's going to poll well and what can we do to get through the next election.
And what I've said is, look, people do need serious relief. They are, are getting hammered. I mean, people who -- can't go on job searches because they can't fill up their
gas tank
. And so what I've said is, let's accelerate a -- the second half of a tax stimulus proposal that I had put forward that would put, immediately, hundreds of dollars into people's pockets to get through the summer; let's pass a permanent middle-class
tax cut
, $1,000 per family, to offset the
payroll tax
to deal not just with rising costs of gas, but also rising costs of food, rising costs of
prescription drugs
; and, most importantly, let's invest in
alternative fuels
, raising
fuel efficiency
standards on cars, and let's get serious about reducing consumption of oil, which is the only way that, over the long term, we're going to reduce, we're going to reduce
gas prices
.
And, you know, I have to say that if
Senator Clinton
or
John McCain
had stood up in previous years for increases in
fuel efficiency
standards, in getting serious about a -- an
energy policy
that is freeing ourselves from dependence on
foreign oil
, then we would not be in this same situation in the first
place
. And I don't want, 20 years from now, to have a bunch of politicians proposing a suspension of the
gas tax
holiday when gas is $8 or $10 a gallon because we failed to act now. Now is the time for us to act, and I think the people of
Indiana
and
North Carolina
understand
that.
MR. RUSSERT:
It's a pander?
SEN. OBAMA:
Yes.
MR. RUSSERT:
Ethanol
, very important to your
state
, very important to, to
Iowa
. Here's the reports on that."Across the
country
,
ethanol
plants are swallowing more and more of the nation's corn crop. This year, about a quarter of
U.S.
corn will go to feeding
ethanol
plants instead of poultry or livestock. That has helped farmers ... but it's boosted demand -- and prices -- for corn at the same time global grain demand is growing....
"Legislation providing for
ethanol
subsidies is being criticized for making food more expensive while
gasoline prices
continue to climb.
Rick Perry
," the governor of
Texas
, "has asked the
EPA
to waive half of the `misguided'
ethanol
requirements because of rising food costs."
SEN. OBAMA:
Mm-hmm.
MR. RUSSERT:
Would you be willing to
change
ethanol
subsidies or suspend some of these requirements so that people are not using corn for
ethanol
, but using corn for food and lowering food prices.
SEN. OBAMA:
Well, look, we, we've got a serious food problem around the world. We, we've got rising food prices here in the
United States
. In other countries we're seeing riots because of, because of the lack of food supplies. So this is something that we're going to have to deal with.
There are a number of factors that go into this. Changes in climate are contributing. The, the fact that in a lot of countries, you know, we've had problems getting food supplies to poor countries because the wealthier countries have reduced their stockpiles in, in serious ways. And so there're a whole host of reasons why we're seeing problems with
food supply
. There's no doubt that biofuels may be contributing to it. And what I've said is, my top priority is making sure that people are able to get enough to eat. And if it turns out that we've got to make changes in our
ethanol
policy to help people get something to eat, then that's got to be the step we take.
But I also believe that
ethanol
has been a important transitional tool for us to start dealing with our long-term
energy crisis
ultimately. Over time we're going to shift to
cellulosic ethanol
, where we're not using food stocks but we're using wood chips, we're using, you know, prairie grass, we're using...
MR. RUSSERT:
How long...
SEN. OBAMA:
...other stuff for this.
MR. RUSSERT:
How long before our automobiles are off of gasoline oil and, and using something like an
alternative fuel
?
SEN. OBAMA:
Well, you know, I, I think that if we decided right now that we were going to make the kind of investment I've proposed -- $150 billion over 10 years -- then I think at the end of the decade we could have a
auto industry
that has significantly reduced our consumption of oil by as much as 35, 40 percent. And the technologies exist right now for plug-in hybrids. You know, we should continue to investigate the possibilities of
electric cars
. The problem is is that we have not been serious about it, and
Detroit
ended up making investments in
SUVs
and large trucks because that's where they perceived a
competitive advantage
and that's where they felt they could make the most profit. I think it was a mistake for them not to plan earlier. Now we're seeing a huge growth in fuel-efficient cars that is benefitting the Japanese automakers, and
Detroit
is getting pounded some more. And I think that we can make those cars here in the
United States
. By the way, that's going to be our expert market over the future.
China
already has higher
fuel efficiency
standards than we do. If we want to compete for those markets, then we're going to have to invest in technology. The
government
can help, but the automakers have to make some changes. And I didn't say that just in
front
of environmental groups, I went to
Detroit
and said it in
front
of the automakers. That's the kind of truth telling we need from the next president.
MR. RUSSERT:
In terms of
climate change
,
global warming
, you've talked about wind and solar and biofuels.
SEN. OBAMA:
Mm-hmm.
MR. RUSSERT:
What about nuclear? All -- in all realistic assessment, don't we need more
nuclear power
in order to wean ourselves off of those same fuels that are contaminating the world?
SEN. OBAMA:
I think we do have to look at nuclear, and what we've got to figure out is can we store the material properly? Can we make sure that they're secure? Can we deal with the expense? Because the problem is, is that a lot of our nuclear industry, it reinvents the wheel.
Each
nuclear power
plant that is proposed has a new design, has -- it, it has all kinds of changes, there are all sorts of
cost overruns
. So it has not been an effective option. That doesn't mean that it can't be an effective option, but we're going to have to figure out storage and safety issues. And my attitude when it comes to energy is there's no
silver bullet
. We've got to be -- we've, we've got to look at every possible option.
You know, I've said the same thing about coal. I have a aggressive goal of reducing
carbon emissions
, and coal is a dirty fuel right now. But if we can figure out how to sequester carbon and burn
clean coal
, we're the
Saudi Arabia
of coal, and I don't think that we can dismiss out of hand the use of coal as part of our energy mix. What we are going to have to
understand
, though, is, is that
global warming
is real, it is serious and that whatever options we come up with, if they are not addressing the fact that the planet is getting warmer, then we are failing not just this generation, but
future generations
.
MR. RUSSERT:
We're going to take a quick break and come back and talk about some foreign and
defense policy
issues. More of our conversation with
Barack Obama
, Democratic candidate for president. We're live from
Indianapolis
,
Indiana
, the site of Tuesday's primary.
MR. RUSSERT:
More from
Senator Barack Obama
, live from
Indianapolis
, right after this brief station break.
MR. RUSSERT:
And we are back. We're in
Indiana
. Why? Because that's the primary on Tuesday. We're in
Indianapolis
talking to
Barack Obama
, Democratic candidate for president.
Iraq
and
Iran
, the
administration
, we have reported at
NBC
, are drawing up some plans for potential airstrikes in
Iran
at different
missile weapons
factories or
special force
compounds because we have indications, evidence that the Iranians are helping some of their supporters within
Iraq
to kill
U.S. troops
.
SEN. OBAMA:
Mm-hmm.
MR. RUSSERT:
If it could be demonstrated that was a fact, would you be in support of such limited attacks in
Iran
?
SEN. OBAMA:
Well, let, let me not speculate yet. I want to, I want to take a, take a look at the kind of evidence that the
administration
is putting forward, what these plans are exactly. I've always said that, you know, as commander in chief, I don't take
military
options off the table and I think it's appropriate for us to plan for a whole host of contingencies. But let's look at the larger picture.
Iran
has been the biggest strategic beneficiary of our invasion of
Iraq
, they are stronger because of our decision to go in; and what we have to do is figure out how are we going to recalibrate our strategic position in the
region
. I think that starts with pulling our combat troops out of
Iraq
. We have placed them in harm's way, we have fanned the flames of anti-American sentiment, we are distracted from what's the real battle
front
that we need to focus on, which is
Afghanistan
and, and rooting out
al-Qaeda
. And if we put forward a plan where we are not going
to be a permanent occupier in
Iraq
and we force the Iraqis to
stand
up and negotiate and come to a compromise that includes, by the way, a regional discussion with
Iran
, with
Syria
, as well as
Saudi Arabia
,
Jordan
,
Turkey
and other
regional powers
, then I think we are going to be in a better posture to deal with the long-term threat of
Iran
and particularly its development of
nuclear weapons
. That's something that this
administration
has failed to do. I have consistently said that we've got to talk directly to
Iran
, send them a
clear message
that they have to stop, not only with their potential funding of militias inside of
Iraq
, but they also have to stop funding
Hamas
, they have to stop funding
Hezbollah
, they've got to
stand
down on their
nuclear weapons
. There will be continued consequences for those kinds of actions, but that here are also some carrots and possible benefits if they
change
behavior. Those kinds of direct talks have not taken
place
. That's the kind of
change
in
foreign policy
that I plan to put in
place
when I'm president of the
United States
.
MR. RUSSERT:
The
U.S. ambassador
to
Iraq
,
Ryan Crocker
, said that a quick
withdrawal
of
U.S. troops
from
Iraq
could result in genocide. Would you factor that in? And if that began to emerge as an issue, would you stop the
withdrawal
?
SEN. OBAMA:
Tim
, I would -- of course I would factor in the possibilities of genocide, and I factored it in when I said that I would begin a phased
withdrawal
. What we've talked about is a very deliberate and, and prudent approach to the
withdrawal
, one to two brigades per month. At that pace it would take about 16 months. Assuming that
George Bush
is not going to lower troop levels before the next president takes office, we're talking about potentially two years away. At that point we will have been in
Iraq
seven years. If we cannot get the Iraqis to
stand
up in seven years, we're not going to get them to
stand
up in 14 or 28 or 56 years. And the danger we've got is that, with our
military
overstretched, with acknowledgement by our own
Army
officials that we don't have a
strategic reserve
right now to deal with other problems, we can't get more troops into
Afghanistan
, we're having trouble leveraging
NATO
to send in more troops in
Afghanistan
to deal with a growing
Taliban
and
al-Qaeda
threat, that unless we
change
postures in a deliberate fashion, our overall strategic posture in the
region
is going to be weaker.
Now, I, I have said that even as we're withdrawing, we are going to continue to partner with the
Iraqi government
, to train their
military
. We're going to continue to partner with them on, on humanitarian issues. I think we can get the
United Nations
and the
international community
to be part of a process of monitoring that ensures that we're not seeing
ethnic cleansing
and genocide as we pull out. But what we can't do is sustain a long-term occupation in
Iraq
and expect to be able to deal with the other threats that exist in that neighborhood.
MR. RUSSERT:
Hillary Clinton
was asked about if
Iran
launched a
nuclear attack
against
Israel
, and this is the answer she gave. Let's listen.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY):
(From "
Good Morning America
") Well, the question was, "If
Iran
were to launch a
nuclear attack
on
Israel
, what would our response be?" And I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack
Iran
. And I want them to
understand
that.
We would be able to totally obliterate them.
MR. RUSSERT:
"Obliterate them."
SEN. OBAMA:
Yeah.
MR. RUSSERT:
What do you think of that
language
?
SEN. OBAMA:
Well, it's not the
language
that we need right now, and I think it's
language
that's reflective of
George Bush
. We have had a
foreign policy
of bluster and saber-rattling and tough talk, and, in the meantime, we make a series of strategic decisions that actually strengthen
Iran
. So -- and, you know, the irony is, of course,
Senator Clinton
, during the course of this
campaign
, has at times said, "We shouldn't speculate about
Iran
." You know, "We've got to be cautious when we're running for president." She scolded me on a couple of occasions about this issue, and yet, a few days before an election, she's willing to use that
language
. But in terms of... terms of...
MR. RUSSERT:
But would you...
SEN. OBAMA:
...in terms of...
MR. RUSSERT:
Would you respond against
Iran
?
SEN. OBAMA:
It --
Israel
is a ally of ours. It is the most important ally we have in the
region
, and there's no doubt that we would act forcefully and appropriately on any attack against
Iran
, nuclear or otherwise. So -- but it is important that we use
language
that sends a signal to the
world community
that we're shifting from the sort of
cowboy diplomacy
, or lack of diplomacy, that we've seen out of
George Bush
. And this kind of
language
is not helpful. When
Iran
is able to go to the
United Nations
complaining about the statements made and get some sympathy, that's a sign that we are taking the wrong approach.
MR. RUSSERT:
Senator Clinton
also called for an umbrella of deterrence in the
Middle East
, defending not only
Israel
, but she said "other countries in the
region
," suggesting that perhaps
Saudi Arabia
,
Jordan
, other places in that
region
. Should the
U.S.
have an umbrella of deterrence to protect Arab nations?
SEN. OBAMA:
Well, it -- look, this is presupposing something that I'm unwilling to presuppose, and that is that
Iran
's going to get
nuclear weapons
. My intention is to make sure they don't. And the way we do that is, as I indicated before, to rally the
international community
, to engage direct talks with
Iran
, to send a
clear
signal about the consequences of continuing to develop
nuclear weapons
, but also to send a signal that if they are willing to
stand
down, that we can provide them with the kind of assistance that they need in order to help their people. So my central goal is to prevent them from getting
nuclear weapons
.
I, I'm troubled by the idea that, as a throwaway line in the debate, you start expanding the
U.S.
nuclear umbrella potentially to a whole host of other countries without any
clear
idea of what these criteria are, who might be involved and so forth. I think there's no doubt that we need to
think about what our strategic posture is with respect to
Saudi Arabia
,
Jordan
and other ally -- other friends in the
region
. But, you know, right now we don't have a formal alliance with many of these other countries. And if we are to develop that, we should do it prudently, cautiously, in consultation with
Congress
.
MR. RUSSERT:
Do you think the
American people
would want to send American men and women to
Saudi Arabia
to defend them against
Iran
?
SEN. OBAMA:
Well, that's, I think, part of the debate that should be taking
place
. Obviously, we've got
national security
interests in
oil supplies
in the
region
. And as president, that's something that I would factor in. But I am not willing, at this point, to suggest that somehow we are going to extend our nuclear umbrella or that we have the same sorts of alliance with
Saudi Arabia
that we do with
NATO
countries or that we do with
Israel
.
MR. RUSSERT:
Afghanistan
. The situation, according to some, is deteriorating as the
Taliban
continues to reconstitute itself. Would you, as president, be willing to have a
military
surge in
Afghanistan
in order to, once and for all, eliminate the
Taliban
?
SEN. OBAMA:
Yes. I think that's what we need. I think we need more troops there, I think we need to do a better job of reconstruction there. I think we have to be focused on
Afghanistan
. It is one of the reasons that I was opposed to the war in
Iraq
in the first
place
. We now know that
al-Qaeda
is stronger than any time since
2001
. We've just received additional intelligence reports from our agencies, showing that they are growing in capability. That is something that we've got to address.
And we're also going to have to address the situation in
Pakistan
, where we now have, in the federated areas,
al-Qaeda
and the
Taliban
setting up bases there. We now have a new
government
in
Pakistan
. We have an opportunity to initiate a new relationship. We've got to send a signal to them that we are interested in
national security
, but we also recognize they're interested in figuring out how do they feed their people and how do they prosper economically? And instead of just focusing on our issues, we've got to focus on some of theirs, so that we can get better cooperation to hunt down
al-Qaeda
and make sure that that does not become a
safe haven
for them.
MR. RUSSERT:
In the remaining minutes, let me talk to -- about some politics. You said, "
Indiana
may end up being the tiebreaker." Right? That's where we are. So if
Hillary Clinton
wins here, she wins?
SEN. OBAMA:
No. I...
MR. RUSSERT:
She wins the nomination?
SEN. OBAMA:
No. I -- what I, what I said was is that -- this was in the context of
Pennsylvania
,
North Carolina
,
Indiana
, the three largest
states
that are remaining -- I said clearly
Senator Clinton
was favored in
Pennsylvania
, I was slightly favored in
North Carolina
,
Indiana
was one that was a toss-up. So, between those three
states
, that would be the one that was hardest to gauge in terms of where the voters might go. But we've got more contests remaining, and I'm confident that
Senator Clinton
's going to stay in until, until the very end, and then we're going to have a
decision about who's going to be the nominee. And, and my argument to, to the
American people
, and my argument to the voters, and my argument to the superdelegates is that this is a time where we can't just settle for business as usual, that we've got to have a different kind of politics, we've got to push back the
special interests
in
Washington
, we've got to engage in some truth telling, and that's why this
gas tax
debate has been so important. And I think we have to unify to
country
to solve problems.
You know, you asked earlier in the interview about, you know, issues of my patriotism and being attacked by
Republicans
. One thing I'm absolutely confident about,
Tim
, the more I travel around the
country
, people don't think of themselves first as
Republicans
or
Democrats
, they don't think of themselves first as
black or white
; they think of themselves as
Americans
. And if we can tap into that spirit and that core decency and generosity, then we can solve
health care
, we can solve energy. If we don't, if we're continued to be distracted by the kind of games that we see typically out of
Washington
, then we're going to have missed our, missed our opportunity.
MR. RUSSERT:
So if you win
Indiana
and
North Carolina
, you don't think the race is over?
SEN. OBAMA:
Well, I don't think the race is over until
Senator Clinton
decides that she's getting out or until all the primaries and caucuses have taken
place
. And we know that's all -- you know, that's only a month away.
MR. RUSSERT:
But if you lose
Indiana
and
North Carolina
, are you on your heels?
SEN. OBAMA:
No. I -- you know, we are going to keep on going, and we feel confident that, ultimately, I'm going to be the Democratic nominee.
MR. RUSSERT:
Here's the latest elected delegate count. These are the elected delegates:
Obama
,
1492
;
Clinton
,
1338
; an advantage of 154. The superdelegates: 274 declared for
Clinton
, 253 for
Obama
, 268 are uncommitted, which gives you an overall lead of about 133 if you combine those two numbers. This is what you said in
New Albany
,
Indiana
, the other day.
SEN. OBAMA:
If we've won the most delegates from the voters, seems to me that it might be a good idea to make me the nominee.
MR. RUSSERT:
It's doesn't appear mathematically possible that
Senator Clinton
can overcome your lead of elected delegates.
SEN. OBAMA:
Hm.
MR. RUSSERT:
If the superdelegates got together, the undecided superdelegates and said, "You know,
Senator Obama
, we think that
Hillary Clinton
is a stronger candidate against
John McCain
. Here are the latest polls in the
swing states
, the overall national polls. You've run a wonderful race, but we're going to go with
Senator Clinton
as our nominee," what would you do?
SEN. OBAMA:
I don't think that's going to happen. I -- let, let me say at the outset, I want a Democrat to win in November, so even if
Senator Clinton
were the nominee instead of me, I would still be campaigning for
Democrats
because we haven't talked much about
John McCain
today, and the one thing I'm
clear
about is he wanted -- wants to continue
George Bush
's
foreign policy
, he wants to continue
George Bush
's
economic policies
. He said
George Bush
had, had made great progress economically. And his proposals, which are essentially $300 billion worth of
corporate tax
cuts that aren't paid for that would add to our deficit and increase the imbalance in our
tax code
, I think is the exact wrong prescription for
America
. So, so, so...
MR. RUSSERT:
The
Republicans
suggest your plans don't add up either, but that's a whole different discussion.
SEN. OBAMA:
So, so, so...
MR. RUSSERT:
But do the superdelegates have the right to override, in effect, the decision of the elected delegates?
SEN. OBAMA:
I, I think the superdelegates, by rule, can make their own decision. I think the superdelegates are going to take a look not at momentary snapshot polls, but they're going to take a look at who's run the
campaign
that can bring about
change
in American and can actually govern after the election. And the number of new people that we've brought in, the organizations that we've set up in all 50
states
, the enthusiasm, the energy that our
campaign
has displayed indicates to me and should indicate to the superdelegates that the
American people
are ready to move in a new direction, and that's what we're offering. And I'm confident that, if I am the nominee, that I offer
Democrats
the best chance of winning in November.
MR. RUSSERT:
And if the superdelegates decide otherwise, you will abide by it.
SEN. OBAMA:
Well, you know, as, as I said, I'm committed to making sure
Democrats
win in November.
MR. RUSSERT:
Barack Obama
, the senator from
Illinois
, we thank you for joining us for the full hour right here on
MEET THE PRESS
.
SEN. OBAMA:
Thank you so much.
MR. RUSSERT:
And we'll be right back.
MR. RUSSERT:
Our thanks to the great folks here at
WTHR Channel
13 in
Indianapolis
, you guys have been terrific. That's all for today. We'll be back next week. If it's Sunday, it is
MEET THE PRESS
.
“ ”