'Meet the Press' transcript for April 20, 2008

MR. TIM RUSSERT:  Our issues this Sunday:  Another testy Clinton-Obama debate. Obama tries to brush off critical reviews of his debate performance, while the Clinton campaign continues to pound away. All eyes on Pennsylvania this Tuesday.  And in two weeks, Indiana and North Carolina.  With us, for Barack Obama, his campaign’s chief strategist, David Axelrod.  For Hillary Clinton, he replaced Mark Penn as her campaign’s chief strategist, Geoff Garin.  Obama’s Axelrod, Clinton’s Garin—the chief strategists square off, only on MEET THE PRESS.

Then, insights and analysis from David Brooks of The New York Times, E.J. Dionne of The Washington Post, and Michele Norris of NPR’s “All Things Considered.”

But first, two days until the Pennsylvania primary.  We’re joined by the top strategists from each campaign, David Axelrod of team Obama, Geoff Garin of team Clinton.

Welcome, both.

MR. GEOFF GARIN:  Thanks, Tim.

MR. DAVID AXELROD:  Thanks, Tim.  Good to be here.

MR. RUSSERT:  Let’s go to the board and look at the very latest poll from MSNBC, McClatchy and the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.  There it is, Pennsylvania: Clinton, 48; Obama, 43.  A Clinton lead of five.  Other polls last week, Indiana:  Obama, 40; Clinton, 35.  North Carolina:  Obama, 47; Clinton, 34. Here’s the latest delegate count, elected delegates:  Obama, 1417; Clinton, 1251.  A lead of 166.  Superdelegates:  Obama, 236; Clinton, 262.  A lead of 26 for Hillary Clinton.  Add those together, 1653 to 1513, 140 delegate lead for Barack Obama.  Contests won, Obama’s won 28; Clinton, 14.  Total cumulative votes cast in the primaries and caucuses:  13.4 million for Obama, 12.7 million for Clinton.  Obama advantage of 699,000.

Looking at those numbers, Geoff Garin, what is Hillary Clinton’s path to the nomination?  How does she win?

MR. GARIN:  Well, step by step is the short answer, as we’ve got 10 contests left, starting with Pennsylvania on Tuesday.  We recognize that we have to show up well in all of those contests.  But we’re going to let the process play through.  The process has been good for the Democratic Party.  We are gaining new Democratic registrants every day.  People are excited.  People say that, that, that there is a view among Democratic voters that this is a process that should go on.  People care much more about getting it right than getting it done.  And, you know, we’ll go through to June 3^rd.  I think at that point it’ll be a very, very close election.  Neither candidate’s going to have enough pledged delegates to win the nomination to have the 2200-plus that are needed.  And we’ll see where we are, and the, and the, and the party leaders and elected officials will then start to exercise their good judgment about what’s in the best interest not just of the party, but of the country in terms of who will make the best, strongest president for America.

MR. RUSSERT:  But if you crunch the numbers and even assume that Hillary Clinton wins Pennsylvania by 10 points...

MR. GARIN:  Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT:  ...with two million voters turning out, she would gain 200,000 cumulative popular votes in that total.  It’s very difficult to find a way where she’ll have more elected vote—delegates, she’ll have less popular cumulative vote, she’ll have won fewer contests.  How do you then say, “Nominate me and not the other guy, who has more delegates, more popular vote and won more contests”?

MR. GARIN:  Well, there, there’s more to this process.  The—look, the superdelegates as they’re called are—this is not about a back room deal. These are people who are elected officials.  They are elected party representatives.  They’re going to—in, in the, in the clear light of day, both candidates, I think, will make a case to them about why they’re the best choice for the party and for the country.  But the, the reality is is that neither candidate will have enough pledged delegates when the last votes are count—are cast on June 3^rd, and we will go from there.

There, there is not—there is no need to make a rush to judgment here. The—to me, in, in some respects, the—there’s an analogy in what happened in November 2000 when, after the close count in Florida, all of these people were wringing their hands saying, “Oh my gosh, we have a constitutional crisis on our hands.  We’ve got to get this done quickly.” The voters were saying, “No, slow down.  Let’s, let’s get it right.  Let’s let the process play through.” And they showed great good sense then.  And that’s what Democratic voters are saying now.  “There is a process; let it play through.  Let the people speak.” We’ll see where we are on June 3^rd.  There is not—there’s not a, a problem here.  And Senator Obama has said the same thing.

MR. RUSSERT:  Do you?

MR. AXELROD:  Well, look, I agree with Geoff that there has been something very positive about this contest.  We’ve brought more Democrats out than at anytime in recent memory.  There’s great enthusiasm within the party, but to say that we shouldn’t have a rush to judgment, I mean, we’ve been at this for 15 months.  We’ve been through, you know, 40-some-odd primaries.

Now, look, I don’t believe that, that anyone should tell Senator Clinton to get out of the race.  She has to make that decision, and as long as she feels she has a reasonable chance to win the nomination, you know, I understand her continuing.  She’s poured herself into this.  She’s a formidable candidate and a formidable person.  But if the strategy ultimately becomes, “We can’t win the, the delegate count, we really can’t win the nomination on the legit, so we’re going to apply the kitchen sink strategy and tear down Senator Obama and see if we can destroy him in order to advance our own candidacy,” that is damaging.  That is bad for the party.  So if—let’s move forward.  But let’s move forward in a positive, constructive way that serves the purposes of the country and the party and not John McCain and a continuation of these Bush policies.

MR. GARIN:  I, I, I agree with that, Tim, but I, I don’t think that, you know, that’s what the Obama campaign says.  I, I honestly don’t think it’s, it’s what it does.  They—talk about the kitchen sink, just this weekend they’re out there with two new negative ads.  They held a—Senator Obama said at the debate the other day that they only deal with Bosnia when asked.  I think they held their fourth conference call on Bosnia the other day, which their—one of their spokespeople said that Senator Clinton lacks the—this is the quote, “lacks the moral authority to lay a wreath at the tomb of the unknown soldier on Memorial Day.” When has anybody in the Clinton campaign said anything like that about...

MR. AXELROD:  Well, there was the time—well, first of all, we, we...

MR. GARIN:  About Barack Obama.  David says that Hillary has, “a special interest obsession.” David Plouffe says “one of the most secretive politicians in America.” This is not—I’m, we’re—we want a go ahead and have a good, fair discussion of the issues facing the country, but we really don’t want to play by two sets of rules.  It’s not fair.

MR. AXELROD:  Look, first of all, we repudiate—that was a terrible thing that, that soldier, that veteran said on that phone call, and it was reminiscent of the time that someone on a conference call for your campaign compared our health care plan to Nazi Germany, and Howard Wolfson rightly repudiated that.  We repudiate this.  You can’t control the way your...

MR. GARIN:  But that—you were...(unintelligible)...you weren’t even holding...(unintelligible).

MR. AXELROD:  Just, just, just let me finish, Geoff.  Just let me—just let me, let me, let me...

MR. GARIN:  You said you were only answering when asked.

MR. AXELROD:  Let me finish.

MR. GARIN:  Sorry.

MR. AXELROD:  The, the, the so-called negative ads you’re talking about are a, a response spot to a negative ad that was put on the air in Pennsylvania by a group called The American Leadership Project, one of these 527 so-called independent campaigns, funded by the Clinton campaign, run by Clinton operatives, a negative ad against Senator Obama.  The response spot dealt with Senator Clinton briefly, and 20 percent, 20 seconds of it was a positive exploitation of Senator Obama’s program.

But the, you know, as long as we’re on the subject, and I don’t want to dwell on this, the, the, you—did you not put a negative ad on this weekend in Philadelphia?  The--100 percent negative ad attacking Senator Obama?

MR. GARIN:  No.  I don’t believe we did.

MR. AXELROD:  Yeah, you did.  Go back and check with your people, and it was, it’s an ad on lobbying, and it’s circulating...

MR. GARIN:  It’s not.  It, it ends up, I believe, with...

MR. AXELROD:  No, no, it’s 100 percent negative ad, Geoff.  Go back and ask your people.  I understand you’re new in the campaign, and I love you, man, you’re a good friend of mine.  I know you to be a good, positive person.

MR. GARIN:  Right.

MR. AXELROD:  But I think that there’s some vestiges of the old regime still in place.

MR. GARIN:  Well, look, when, when, when...

MR. RUSSERT:  Let me just cut through this, Geoff Garin...

MR. AXELROD:  OK.

MR. RUSSERT:  ...because I remember Senator Clinton saying that she was qualified to be commander and chief, John McCain was qualified to be commander and chief, but she withheld judgment as to whether Barack Obama is qualified to be commander and chief.  Is that appropriate?

MR. GARIN:  Well, look, I mean, she said in the debate the other day, yes, yes, yes, that he can be elected, but, look, I’m not a—I just don’t understand why that that’s the question for Senator Clinton when, when Senator Obama says that Hillary Clinton doesn’t have the sense that things need to change in Washington.  Why isn’t the question to Barack Obama, will Hillary Clinton, if elected, make the kinds of changes we need in the country today? There, there, there, there...

MR. RUSSERT:  There’s the question.  What’s the answer?

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