Dalai Lama: 'We are not anti-Chinese'

ANN CURRY:

You're ready to go to Beijing?

DALAI LAMA:

--not busy.  That's uh now, if without sort of proper preparation, just to go Peking.  I think Tibetans, I think a Dalai Lama visit uh Beijing-- I think they may, I said, they put a lot of sort of hope, or whatever expectations.

ANN CURRY:

So, you're not resolved about whether you will go to Beijing?

DALAI LAMA:

So, I don't know.  You see, if I my go Peking, and nothing happen?  Then I think Tibetan I think it may get great disappointment.  Therefore, visit to Peking, we need some preparation.  But other, otherside, outside. no problem, anywhere, anytime.

ANN CURRY:

Let me put it this way, China is listening to this interview.  What is your message to the Chinese leadership?

DALAI LAMA:

(LAUGHTER) I already, you see-- wrote a letter to Chinese leaders, and also I appeal with my whole....

DALAI LAMA:

(LAUGHTER) I already, you see--wrote a letter to Chinese leaders, and also I appeal with my whole--hopeful hand to the millions of Han brother, sisters already. My main point is, we are not-- the Chinese public, they are not against you.  Always just respect you, admire you.  And so these-- past mistake-- we feel sympathy-- with them.  

CURRY:

You have sympathy for China?

DALAI LAMA:

Oh, yes, like Tiananmen event.  Same! Now, also is-- I heard is-- some Chinese killed during this-- period.  We pray together. No differences. Same human beings. So, now-- so-- the-- secondly, for Olympic-- right from beginning, I already support that. Still, I'm supporting. And I'm not seeking separation.  I fully committed-- my-- I call, mid-riff (?) approach.  And that means-- we want mutually a good solution. Because we are backward, Tibet area. Backward materially. Spiritually, very advanced.  But as-- therefore, as far as material development is concerned, Tibet remains retained-- big country, big nation, people from-- China. We get greater benefit about economy development.  But right at-- we must-- have certain subtle, or s-- system-- which can be full guarantee about preservation of Tibetan-- culture, including-- Tibetan language, and Tibetan Buddhist tradition.

CURRY:

You call it genocide, a cultural genocide--

DALAI LAMA:

Yes.

CURRY:

--is happening in Tibet?  You describe enormous suffering.  Be specific.  I mean, you say, "cultural genocide".  What is happening in your view, in Tibet, to cause this unrest?

DALAI LAMA:

I usually s-- always say, whether intentionally, or unintentionally, some kind of cultural genocide is taking place.  Unintentionally, means because of overwhelming Chinese population, now in Lhasa for example.  Lhasa, 2/3s of the population, out of 300,000, are Chinese.  Shopkeepers, restaurant-- all these Han Chinese. So, the minority Tibetan in-- in same sort of area.  All their daily life they have to speak-- they have to use Chinese more than Tibetan.  So, Tibetan language become something useless.  Therefore-- some-- or say these-- some parent or the student-- Tibetan, they, although they respect, you see, our language.  But in practical reason, they advise their children not better to learn Han-- the Chinese language.  Tibetan language is-- in order to seek jobs, or some better sort of-- or s-- opportunities--

CURRY:

Opportunities?

DALAI LAMA:

--the Chinese language is more important.  But these are-- because of the overwhelming, sort of, condition, or sort of circumstances, the Tibetan language becoming insignificant, or sometimes deliberately negligent number one. Then also, you see, the-- I met one-- some Tibetan student, who can speak only Chinese, not Tibetan. Now they say, they-- in their native place, they say they-- no opportunity to study Tibetan.  So, they ask Chinese authority-- "We want to study Tibetan."  That-- authority, in some area-- responded, "Ah, no use learning Tibetan."  So, that kind of s-- situation.  Not necessarily deliberately.  Some-- bad intention.  Not necessarily.  In meantime, the-- another factor, intentionally.  That means-- few years ago, one party secretary in Lhasa, his name, I think, TunGunYa. He mentioned in a party meeting the real source of threat of Tibetan separation from China, is the Tibetan Buddhist faith. So, they consider Tibetan Buddhist faith is dangerous. So, they have political, sort of motivations-- starting, out of the fear. See, that kind of attitude. So, therefore, you see, they deliberately-- put restrictions on Buddhist study.  And the student and officials-- banned to keep their Buddha-- in there-- or the others-- Buddha like that.  But many of them which is secretly-- keep (LAUGHTER) some Buddhist statue like that.  But their officials are like-- it's banning.  The officials and the student.  And the-- curriculum, text, there's some word which religious significant there.  They actually, deliberately is-- removing these things since, I think, last-- a few decades like that. So, these are-- and then, in the monastery, or nunnery, political education. (LAUGHTER) So, these are deliberate sort of methods-- in order to diminish the Buddhist sort of faith, or Buddhist sort of, what is, study like that.  So, that's part of intentionally. So, from both sides-- I-- I notice this as Tibetan, who born in India-- and Tibetan who come from Tibet. It clear sort of, what is-- what's the-- the differences.  You see, those Tibetan who come from Tibet, from our own land, you see, they-- their behavior, even-- local Indian people are-- sometimes, you see, express.  Those Tibetan who come in early '60s, they are very gentle, never quarrel with local population.  And after '80s and '90s-- some new Tibetan-- some Tibetan-- new face.  These are little bit different. (LAUGHTER) There's some locally there, you see--

(OVERTALK)

CURRY:

Because they've lost themselves?

DALAI LAMA:

Uh-huh (AFFIRM).  Their--

CURRY:

They're lost?

DALAI LAMA:

--cultural heritage.  More peaceful, more compassionate.  Now that damaged, or degenerate.  So, these are the sign of-- so-- disappearing Tibetan Buddhist culture-- Buddhist way of thinking. 

ANN CURRY:

Throughout history, nations have been absorbed by bigger states.  Often those nations which have stood and fight-- Often those nations that have stood and fight have won.  What has non-violence given the Tibetan people?

THE DALAI LAMA:

Mahatma Gandhi has a certain method.  And also the-- Luther King.  Martin Luther King, I think, one of the real admirer of Mahatma Gandhi's philosophy.  And he, himself, implement and also Nelson Mandela.  Except his early part was different. So, the non-violent and any way, I think non-violent method is something, I mean, not something very unique, I feel non-violent is real human way struggle for our, for certain right. And also, very very realistic according to this reality.

ANN CURRY:

But some young Tibetans say--

THE DALAI LAMA:

Ah.

ANN CURRY:

--this is wrong.

THE DALAI LAMA:

Hmm.

ANN CURRY:

Some young Tibetans say, it is time.

THE DALAI LAMA:

Hmm.

ANN CURRY:

Because of the attention before The Olympics. The world is watching for real change to come to Tibet.

THE DALAI LAMA:

Hmm.

ANN CURRY:

Violence might be required.

THE DALAI LAMA:

Hmm.

ANN CURRY:

Your reaction.

THE DALAI LAMA:

This is too simplified. (CHUCKLES) And this, I think, ideas or talks come from emotion, not from intelligence. Even the United States, super power (CHUCKLES) too much using violence or force. Not really successful. (CHUCKLES) In Iran, or Iraq, and Afghanistan, not really successful. So this is the new reality. And China. Very strong army. This solution relying on using force.  It's old-fashioned.

ANN CURRY:

Is violence ever justified?

THE DALAI LAMA:

No.

ANN CURRY:

Never.

THE DALAI LAMA:

No. In theoretically, yes. You can say in certain-- under certain circumstances. Provided your motivation is good. Your goal is larger interest for larger people and a just cause. Theoretically, a violent method can be permissible, but in practical level, I feel always better avoid using violence. So, those Tibetans, yes, like some Tibetan youth organizations. Other generally youth organization, they also see, agree non-violent method. But some individual, yes, they criticize about our approach.  And very much so are including violent. And they prefer that. But then-- since-- what's it been, now I think, 20, 30 years. They say I have a lot of argument with them.  Saying--violence, some kind of very rough sort of method. Words. What are called Mujahadeens. These, like Palestines or some--yes, Mujahedeens in Afghan or like that. It is a word. And a word can easily express. But implementation. Even you want violent method, very difficult. In our case, Tibet case, violent method is almost like suicide. Not only against our principle, but also practically. Suicide. No use. So, if you think then I--I feel, after all, Tibetan problem must of solved between Chinese and Tibetan. Han Chinese brothers and sisters. Their help is immense important.

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