'Meet the Press' transcript for March 2, 2008

MR. RUSSERT:  Boy, Bismark from Murphy.

Let me ask you...

MR. SHRUM:  Bismark said young people were all liberals.  What happened to you?

MR. MURPHY:  I got old.

MR. RUSSERT:  Let me ask you about the economy, Mary Matalin, because look at this number.  CNBC has a new poll coming out tomorrow, wealth in America. They asked one question, the current state of the economy.  Excellent or good, 16; fair or poor, 83.  In an election where the economy central to people and the Republicans are actually asking, in effect, for a third term in the White House, what do those numbers mean to you?

MS. MATALIN:  Well, there, there's an element of cognitive dissonance there, because if you ask them how their own personal finances are, are going, those numbers completely switch.  But politically there has not--yes.  See, looking around, that's completely true.  They absolutely switch about your own personal finances.

MR. SHRUM:  I think most people are getting very insecure about their own personal finances.

MS. MATALIN:  Let's--because they're berated with these sort of--these numbers.  However, politically, we haven't had the contrast yet.  People do not want, as a furtherance of economic policy, the kind of centralization that Obama and Hillary are proposing.  They don't want more regulations, they don't want higher taxes, they don't want less trade.  Maybe, you know, there's a way to help it through the transition in Ohio and Pennsylvania, those manufacturing states.  But when you start contrasting liberal--I'm--not liberal, liberal, liberal, just you--redistributionist policies with limited government policies, the limited government, conservative policies economics win every time.

MR. RUSSERT:  Is it the economy stupid?

MR. CARVILLE:  Of course it is.  And people are feeling it.  This is not something created by the media.  I mean, these, these, these mortgages, or high energy costs, these, these pathetic employment numbers, the, the health care costs, food costs are just killing people out there.  They're not being told that, that things are terrible.  They are feeling this every day.  And, and I think that there's got to be a relentless focus on this, you know.  And and the Republicans always talk about the court.  I thought this was, like, the most telling moment in the--since, since Bush took office is literally the chief justice of the Supreme Court almost weeping that Exxon was being treated unfairly by a jury in Alaska.  I mean, it was really like, like the powerful please come to the court where you can seek redress for these unfair people. And people are seeing this in their lives every day, and I want, and I want these candidates to bring that up more and more and more.

MR. MURPHY:  No doubt the pain is there, which is going to move that up--economic issue way up in the election.  The opportunity for the, for the Republicans is to put protectionism and tax raises and big spending Obama liberal economics on trial in the election.  We can win that fight.

MS. MATALIN:  That's right.

MR. SHRUM:  Murphy, you just did what you said McCain should be doing.

MR. MURPHY:  No, no, no.  It's part of the--no, no, no, no, no.

MR. SHRUM:  Wait a second.  Wait a second.  Let me tell you--let me tell you.

MR. MURPHY:  Wait a minute, wait a minute, Bob.  I got to answer that quickly.

MR. SHRUM:  No, no.

MS. MATALIN:  You're recasting.

MR. MURPHY:  No, no, I said you have the economic debate after you recapture political reform, which is who McCain is.

MR. SHRUM:  Let me tell you what's going to happen here.

MS. MATALIN:  That's right.

MR. SHRUM:  James ran a campaign in 1992 which went out and said "We ought to have tax cuts for the middle class.  We ought to raise taxes on people at the top." That campaign won.  I think this assumption that Republicans can lie again and say, "Because you want to raise taxes on people who make over 200 or $250,000, you're trying to raise taxes on everybody," won't work.  Number two, you have a president who the other day was asked about the prospect of $4 a gallon gas...

MR. MURPHY:  Right.

MR. SHRUM:  ...and he looked completely flummoxed.  "Is that really right?" I think they seem so out of touch.  And then you have a Republican nominee, John McCain, who said--he's trying to back away from it--"I don't know anything about economics."

MR. MURPHY:  That's not what he said.

MR. SHRUM:  "I rely on my economic team."

MR. CARVILLE:  Right.

MR. SHRUM:  His economic team is a circular firing squad, consisting of Jack Kemp, Pete Peterson.

MR. MURPHY:  Oh, Bob!  You're blowing smoke now.  Come on.

MR. SHRUM:  It is!

MR. MURPHY:  Come on.  Save it for the union hall, Bob.

MS. MATALIN:  Man, you're not The Beatles.  You're Elvis.  You're so old.

MR. SHRUM:  No, I'm--you're not--Mary, you're not political?

MR. RUSSERT:  All right, issues, big divide, no doubt.  But what about personalities?  Do--voters in the Pew Foundation poll volunteered words. First they asked about a candidate's likeability, and here's what they said. Obama, 50 percent likable; 35 percent said somewhat likable; 10 not likable. Clinton, 26, 37, 33; McCain, 21, 55 somewhat, 18 not likable.  That's an 85 percent likable for Obama, 63 for Clinton, 76 McCain.  That's both parties across the board.

Then Pew said, "Give us a word that you think best describes these candidates." The first one was McCain.  Old was the first word people threw out.  Honest, experienced, patriot, conservative, hero, liberal.

Then they asked, OK, Obama.  Inexperienced, charismatic, intelligent, change, inspirational, young, new.

Clinton.  Experienced, strong, untrustworthy, intelligent, smart, determined, rhymes with rich.  That's what the poll said.  They used a different word. But it's a family poll, and this is a family program.  What does that tell you, James?

MR. CARVILLE:  You know what, it breaks my heart, because I, I know her, and I think she is literally one of the warmest people I know.  She's the first person to call with anything.  She's a terrific parent.  I, I really love her as a human being.  And, and I understand that people have these feelings.  I, I--one of these...

MR. RUSSERT:  But what about--what do those numbers tell you?

MR. CARVILLE:  Well, that people think she's smart, experienced, tough and not a particularly likable person.  I--I'm just saying from my standpoint, I agree with all that, I think she's a very likable person.  I'm crazy about her, and it breaks my heart, but I don't deny the numbers.

MR. RUSSERT:  Does likeability matter in an election?

MS. MATALIN:  And, and this personality contest is not over.  We all know so well John McCain's life narrative, and we're all goo-gooing and swooning over the Obama life narrative.  He's young and he's hip and he's cool.  But John is hip and cool in his own way.  He's not young, but he's old in the way that is the best of what this country is.  He's stood up with such courage to an adversity, a savagery the likes of which most of us can't even imagine.  That life narrative that's old, it's a product of old, is a better narrative than young, hip, new, which is essentially different.  He's just different.  He may be the face of the future, but John's old face is the best of what this country is.

MR. MURPHY:  Well...

MR. RUSSERT:  So to try to take advantage of old.

MS. MATALIN:  This story that--these personality contests are not over yet.

MR. MURPHY:  Well, young, hip and new is clearly my department here, so--no. Look, Obama is terrifically powerful as a pop phenomena right now in the center of the country, but so was the hula hoop.  And the question is, is it a fad or is it a real movement?  This is the beginning of where these general election campaigns, the campaigns that counter prosecuted from.  And McCain has a great story.  The word I saw on McCain was honesty.  And that is as much of a change of how people perceive broken politics now as anything else.  That is McCain's ace card.  Obama has a lot of energy...

MR. CARVILLE:  But...

MR. MURPHY:  ...and it is a little bit of a tragedy what's happening with Senator Clinton.

MR. CARVILLE:  Very good point.

MR. MURPHY:  It's just the level into the future is somebody...

MR. CARVILLE:  Bob:

MR. SHRUM:  You see us now sorting ourselves out on, on partisan divides.  I want to go beyond that for a minute.  I think John McCain's a very appealing person to people.  I think that, while his record doesn't always support it, there's a sense of independence, a sense of a guy who will stand up for what he believes.  I agree with James.  Hillary Clinton is a much more attractive human being, at least as I have known her on occasion...

MR. CARVILLE:  Right.

MR. SHRUM:  ...than she's been portrayed in this campaign.  And the time she's done best in the campaign is when she's been herself.  I would not discount the power of what Obama has.  He's touched a responsive chord in people, much as John Kennedy did, much as Ronald Reagan, who was much older, did.  Somehow or other he's speaking something Americans deeply feel.

MS. MATALIN:  (Unintelligible).

MR. RUSSERT:  But does inexperience...

MR. MURPHY:  Yeah.

MR. SHRUM:  Well, that 45 percent inexperience.  I notice when you went down the...

MR. RUSSERT:  That's 45 individuals, is...

MR. SHRUM:  Right, 45 percent saying inexperience, that's probably sort of the vote that's going to be against him if he's running.  I mean, he's, he's not going to get more than 55 percent of the vote.  It's the easiest thing to say about him.

And one of the things that's interesting to me is that people ought to ask this question comparatively; does he have enough experience to be president, rather than is he inexperienced.

MR. CARVILLE:  Right.

MR. SHRUM:  Because in 1960, people would've said Kennedy was relatively inexperienced, but he had enough experience to be president.

MR. CARVILLE:  Tim, I be, think, first of all, if Senator Obama--I think Senator McCain is an admirable man.  He has 59 lobbyists in his campaign.  I mean, idea that he's going to be some kind of reform thing when this is over is, is not going to play out.  And the second thing is, whoever the Democrat that runs against Senator Obama, the slogan of this campaign should be, "if you liked the last eight years with John McCain, you're going to love the next four." I mean, that, that he has an, essentially, a, a continuation of the Bush economic policy...

MR. MURPHY:  That's harsh.

MS. MATALIN:  Yes.

MR. CARVILLE:  ...and the Bush foreign policy.

MR. SHRUM:  That's harsh.

MR. MURPHY:  If the McCain campaign allows them to get away with that...

MR. CARVILLE:  Right.

MR. MURPHY:  ...that'll be the fundamental fail...

MR. CARVILLE:  But then tell me where...

MR. MURPHY:  Nobody is a more different--(clears throat) excuse me, kind of, I'm getting choked up I'm so moved by this.

MR. CARVILLE:  Right.

MR. MURPHY:  A more different kind of Republican than John McCain.  And to say McCain is the capital of lobbyists...

MS. MATALIN:  Right.

MR. MURPHY:  You ask any Republican lobbyist in town, there is no Republican senator more disliked...

MR. CARVILLE:  Well, why have 59 in his camp?

MS. MATALIN:  All right.

MR. MURPHY:  Well, Obama has a ton of lobbyists advising him.  So does Hillary Clinton.

MR. CARVILLE:  I'm just saying.  All I'm...

MR. MURPHY:  Doesn't mean they run their campaign.

MR. CARVILLE:  I'm making the point that he wants to continue the Bush economic policies.  He wants to continue the Bush foreign policy.  And, by the way, what's wrong with that?  If you liked the Republican rule of the last eight years, you'll like John McCain, you're going to love the next four.  He is an admirable man.

MS. MATALIN:  So easy.  I pray they go there.

MR. MURPHY:  "Continue" is not a fair word for what he wants to do.

MS. MATALIN:  You forget what a problems John McCain had in the primaries because he wasn't a Bush Republican.  He's now getting those conservatives, but you can't switch--you can try.

MR. CARVILLE:  Right.

MS. MATALIN:  But you're not going to be successful.

MR. CARVILLE:  But you're saying he's become more of a Bush Republican.

MS. MATALIN:  No, I'm saying he's becoming...

MR. CARVILLE:  That's how he's being successful?

MS. MATALIN:  ...an articulate conveyor of conservative economic thought.

MR. SHRUM:  He had--he had--he even had problems with Mary.

MR. MURPHY:  Ask Rush Limbaugh what a Bush Republican he is.

MR. CARVILLE:  Right.

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