'Meet the Press' transcript for Feb. 17, 2008

MR. RUSSERT: Besides superdelegates, another important issue is Florida and Michigan, and this is what happened. Back in August of '07, Howard Dean wrote this letter to all the candidates:

"As leader of the Democratic Party, I strongly urge you to adhere to the 2008 delegate selection rules. The 2008 Delegate Selection Rules. ... The 2008 Delegate Selection Rules adopted by the full DNC at its August 2006 meeting clearly provide that only four states - Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire," "South Carolina - may hold their respective contests prior to February 5, '08. The [Rules and Bylaws Committee's] finding of noncompliance included a 100 percent loss of pledged and unpledged delegates."

If you tried to move your primary up, you've lost all your delegates. Florida and Michigan did it, they lost all their delegates. The Clinton campaign put out this statement: "We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the" nomination "process." "We believe the DNC's rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role. Thus, we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar."

That was the Clinton campaign in September. Here's the Clinton campaign in February. "With regard to Michigan and Florida, our position is clear. We're going to ask our delegates to vote to seat the delegations from Florida and Michigan. We do not think that" "many Americans should have" had "their votes and their voices and their preferences denied.

"We had an enormous turnout, particular in Florida, the largest turnout in the history of the Democratic primary in Florida. And we believe that it is critically important that those delegates have an opportunity to express their preferences at the convention.

"I don't believe that anyone seriously thinks we're going to have a national convention in which the delegations of Florida and Michigan are not going to have a say. So that is our position."

Senator Durbin, your reaction.

SEN. DURBIN: Well, Michigan and Florida are critical for victory in November. There's no doubt about it. And Barack has said at the end of the day there's going to be an aggressive campaign to win the votes for the presidency for the Democratic candidate in those two states. But just like the superdelegate issue, we have to look carefully at what's happening here. The superdelegates should not be in a position to trump the elected delegates in Denver, and I hope that the Clinton campaign is not arguing that we should abandon an agreement that was reached by all of the presidential candidates to abide by the Democratic National Committee rules. Neither Chuck nor I nor any elected official would want our fate determined in an election where a name isn't on the ballot and where we weren't allowed to campaign. That's Michigan. And, of course, in Florida, none of the candidates campaigned. So to say that the outcome of those elections, which Senator Clinton agreed would not be counted, will somehow be counted in Denver is to change the rules after the election. That isn't fair. We've got to find a fair way to seat delegates from Michigan and Florida that really keeps to the basic agreement that Senator Clinton, Senator Obama and all the Democratic candidates entered into.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Schumer, Senator Clinton said in October, "You know it's clear this election they're having in Michigan is not going to count for anything." Is that your position?

SEN. SCHUMER: Well, no. Here's the bottom line once again, Tim. Each candidate, of course, takes the position that benefits them at the moment. Now on this one, popular vote, particularly in Florida where no one violated the rules, but Florida went ahead on its own and had an election and Hillary won. Now, Senator Obama naturally says don't seat Florida. Senator Clinton says...

MR. RUSSERT: Well...

SEN. SCHUMER: ...do seat Florida. Let me just...

MR. RUSSERT: Wait a minute--wait a minute. Senator...

SEN. SCHUMER: Yeah.

MR. RUSSERT: ...the Clinton campaign put out a statement saying they accepted the DNC rules. But...

SEN. SCHUMER: Yeah.

MR. RUSSERT: So you're no longer accepting them?

SEN. SCHUMER: Well, let me say this, Tim. The bottom line is, for Florida and Michigan, I believe it's much like the superdelegates. There's a great dispute here and it's not just Hillary Clinton. The senators from Michigan, Debbie Stabenow and Carl Levin, one of whom's endorsed, one of whom hasn't, says you must seat Michigan. The senator, the Democratic senator from Florida, says "You must seat Florida. Those are my voters, they should be paid attention to." Here's what we have to do. Same thing as the superdelegates. Should Florida and Michigan be--the hang--you know, hanging in the balance. And we get to June 7 and I don't think that'll happen, by the way. I think there's going to be a clear winner. I think it's going to be Hillary, but that's how these things work. Al Gore said it Sunday. But let's say we're not there. Then Howard Dean, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have to sit down and come up with a process that both sides buy into and both sides will abide by. You cannot--you cannot let these internecine battles create a war.

If they were to seat the Florida and Michigan delegates, the Barack Obama campaign would feel aggrieved and who knows what would happen in the general election. If they were not to seat them, the senators from Michigan and Florida would feel aggrieved, Hilary Clinton would feel aggrieved, again, we'd have a fight. We're going to have to--it's premature now to say we must do this. We have four months of an election, tens of millions of voters, and twists and turns in a campaign we don't know. But the overall rule, Tim, that has to govern here--and I think Dick would agree with this--my guess is in their heart of hearts Hillary and Barack both agree even though we're in the heat of a campaign, is to come up with a general way to solve this problem. It's unique, we haven't had this since I don't remember, I think 1956, where you haven't had a majority govern before the convention. But come up with a plan that each side can buy into and each side will abide by no matter who the ultimate winner is.

MR. RUSSERT: One of the plans being proposed is that there be caucuses in Michigan and Florida where both Obama and Clinton could compete. Would you support that?

SEN. SCHUMER: Well, again, Barack has done better in caucuses, Hillary has done better in primaries. So I guess the, the Clinton campaign would say if we're going to have something, you have to have primaries. The problem there is Florida has a Republican governor and a Republican legislature, and they might not go in primaries.

Again, to say right now what should be done--I know, you know, this is the punditocracy loves this--it's premature and it's destructive for the Democratic Party where, you know, we have blown it before. We, you know, we thought we were going to win in 2000, we won the popular vote, we didn't have the president. We thought we were going to win in 2004. We are on the edge of victory here because Americans want change, and both Hillary and Barack represent change. To have these fights right now destroy the party, greatly weaken the party, makes no sense. Let's go through the election, let's go through the primaries through to June 7, I believe we'll have a clear winner. If we don't, you have to have not Chuck Schumer, not Dick Durbin, not some back room group, but Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama sit down and come up with a way to solve this that each can buy into before the winner is chosen.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Durbin, would you support a do-over, a new caucus or primary in Florida and Michigan, where the candidates could compete?

SEN. DURBIN: Well, we certainly don't accept these elections, because we agreed and Senator Clinton agreed that they wouldn't count. And so now to count them is fundamentally unfair and doesn't play by the rules that Senator Clinton and Senator Obama agreed to. Now, the states of Michigan and Florida as Chuck has described here have their own set of challenges. When I ask the senators from Michigan, could we do a caucus, they say no, we can't get that done. Well, they certainly are not going to have time to do a primary, I wouldn't think. So it really is a very difficult situation that's been created.

I do agree, and I think Senator Obama agrees with Chuck's premise. At the end of the day, we should follow the principle of fairness, we should stick by the rules that were agreed to, we should respect the voters who turned out in record numbers in these Democratic caucuses and primaries. If at the end of the day it appears in Denver that something happened in a back room by the elite or the big shots or those well connected, that isn't any good for the Democratic Party. And for those of us who want to change the course of this nation, like Senator Obama and Senator Clinton, we don't want that outcome in Denver.

SEN. SCHUMER: Here, here. We agree.

MR. RUSSERT: Gentlemen, we have to leave it there. Senator Schumer, Senator Durbin, you are roommates here in Washington?

SEN. DURBIN: That's true.

MR. RUSSERT: You are the "Odd Couple"?

SEN. DURBIN: That is really true.

MR. RUSSERT: Which one's Felix, which one's Oscar?

SEN. DURBIN: If you mean who makes their bed, that's me.

SEN. SCHUMER: He is the neat one, but Dick, I was at the house last night, you weren't there. I was lonely.

MR. RUSSERT: We're going to leave it there.

SEN. DURBIN: Did you make your bed?

SEN. SCHUMER: No, Dick.

MR. RUSSERT: Coming next, "The Capital Gang" is back, right here on MEET THE PRESS. Margaret Carlson, Al Hunt, Bob Novak, Kate O'Beirne, Mark Shields, together. The race for the White House 2008 through the eyes of "The Capital Gang."

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