'Meet the Press' transcript for Feb. 17, 2008

MR. TIM RUSSERT: Our issues this Sunday: As Obama moves ahead of Clinton in the elected delegate count, the candidates exchange strong words on the campaign trail.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY): Some people may think words are change, but you and I know better. Words are cheap.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL): She's right. Speeches alone don't do anything. But you know what? Neither do negative attacks.

MR. RUSSERT: With us, for Barack Obama, his fellow Democratic senator from Illinois, Dick Durbin. For Hillary Clinton, her fellow Democratic senator from New York, Chuck Schumer. Durbin and Schumer square off.

Then we reunited the renowned "Capital Gang" for some insights and analysis on this extraordinary campaign. With us, Margaret Carlson of Bloomberg News, Al Hunt of Bloomberg News, Robert Novak of the Chicago Sun-Times, Kate O'Beirne of the National Review and Mark Shields of PBS' "The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer."

But first, this Tuesday it's Wisconsin and Hawaii, two weeks from Tuesday, Ohio, Texas, Rhode Island and Vermont. Obama vs. Clinton. And joining us now, two senators each representing the candidates: Senator Chuck Schumer from Clinton's home state of New York, Senator Dick Durbin from Obama's home state of Illinois.

Gentlemen, welcome both.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Glad to be here, Tim.

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): Good to be with you.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Durbin, let me start with you. And Senator Schumer, please watch. Here are the latest polls from Wisconsin. It's Obama 47, Clinton 42. From Ohio, a week from Tuesday, right now is 55-34. And in Texas, 49-41. Senator Durbin, how do you see the race?

SEN. DURBIN: Well, I can tell you that we feel good about it. We've seen record turnouts in the Democratic primaries, and I think there's a, there's a feeling that Barack Obama's captured the imagination of millions of voters across America. That's good for the party and it's good for the country. We don't take anything for granted. We're ahead at this point in elected delegates. We're going to continue to work hard. But I think this message that Barack Obama has brought to the campaign is resonating. The people of this country want to see a change. They want to see this country move forward. And the fact that he's now attracting a lot of younger voters who've never participated, independents and even Republicans is an indication we can put a coalition together to not only win in November, but to govern and to solve some of the problems afterwards.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Schumer, are Texas and Ohio must-wins for Senator Clinton?

SEN. SCHUMER: Well, I don't know if they're must-wins, but they are very, very important, no question about it. As you've seen by the polls, she's doing well in those important states. And you know, Hillary Clinton, she knows how to get from point A to point B. She has experience, she has deep knowledge of how government works and she never gives up. And, you know, there are setbacks, there are ups and downs in this campaign; Obama ahead, Clinton ahead, Obama ahead. One thing's for sure, this campaign is going to twist and turn a whole lot of times, and I'd say to the voters, to everybody, I've seen it myself, don't count Hillary Clinton out because she is one fighter. She has tremendous knowledge, tremendous experience. And I think when you look at it--Barack is a great candidate, but Hillary, by her experience, is the better candidate and the better president.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Durbin mentioned elected delegates. Let's look at those. Right now it's 1116 for Obama, 985 for Clinton; a lead of 131. The superdelegates, it's now Obama 183, Clinton 257. These are elected officials and party officials. Last Sunday it was 174; Obama's gained nine in a week. Clinton was at 262, she's lost five. Some erosion from people who've switched sides.

Let's look at contests won and popular vote. Obama's won 21 states plus the District of Columbia and Virgin Islands, that's 23; Clinton 11. The popular vote, Obama 9.3 million, Clinton is 8.6 million. That's a cumulative figure.

Senator Schumer, if Barack Obama was ahead at the end of this primary season in elected delegates, states won and popular vote, should he be the nominee?

SEN. SCHUMER: Well, you know, again, to predict what will happen after June 7, when there are going to be so many twists and turns, you need to know lots of details. Did he win the other states 60-40 or did he win them 50.1 to 49.9? Is the popular vote overwhelming or is it not?

Let me say this, Tim. This is a closely fought contest. It is going to twist and turn a whole bunch of times. And I think making a set rule now in February, when we have till June 7, when there are 19 states, many important ones--Texas, Ohio, Pennsylvania--that haven't voted, when we know the way these campaigns work, there are twists and turns, doesn't make sense. Each candidate's fighting hard. It's a darn close election. I think Democrats believe that this is a very good election because we think there are two good candidates as opposed to, "Oh, we have to settle for somebody," and making a set rule now of any type--each candidate is going to proffer the rule that is in their best interests right now. But for the moment, let's let the primaries move forward and let's see where we are at the end of the day on June 7.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Durbin, if a candidate--either Clinton or Obama--happened to be ahead in elected delegates, states won, popular vote and the other candidate was given the nomination because of superdelegates, what would happen at the convention?

SEN. DURBIN: That'd be a serious problem. You know, the voters will have the last word in November. The elected delegates should have the last word in Denver. Those are the delegates who have stood before the voters. I'm one of those superdelegates, as is Chuck. There are almost 800 of us. We've been involved in this party and given a lot of our lives to it. But let's be very honest about this. The final word has to be decided by elected delegates. And I listened carefully to what Chuck had to say, and I can, I can perceive what the Clinton strategy is now: to use these superdelegates to try to overcome the vote of elected delegates. And that would be unfortunate. It may divide our party. And we ought to have the wisdom and judgment as superdelegates to want this party to be united coming out of Denver.

The last point I want to make is this: It isn't just a matter of winning as we go forward, it's the margin of victory that counts when you deal with proportional delegates. For example, New Jersey was a hard-fought state, but the end of the day, Senator Clinton prevailed. Kansas was a hard-fought state. At the end of the day, Barack Obama prevailed. Barack Obama netted more delegates out of Kansas than Hillary Clinton netted out of New Jersey, so the margin of victory's important. And in 14 states, Barack Obama's margin of victory has been over 20 points. It takes those margins to really move delegates.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the House, said to Bloomberg News, it would be a problem for the party if the verdict would be something different than the public has decided. Do you agree?

SEN. SCHUMER: Well, let me say this. There are good arguments on each side. Nancy Pelosi, moveon.org, have said basically what you've just quoted. Howard Dean and Jim Clyburn have said that the superdelegates ought to vote their conscience. And each has an argument there. I have another goal here--and I think Dick agrees, by what he said--and that is that at the end of the day, we don't have such an internecine battle that we lose the general election. Most Hillary supporters are strong for Hillary; most Barack supporters are strong for Barack. But I think most of us all feel winning that general election and making sure that there's not another four years of Bush-McCain is predominant. So having a set rule in sand when, of course, each candidate chooses the rule at the moment that is in their self-interest, makes no sense. We ought to let this play out.

And then--and I don't think that--and I'd have to say this to Dick--I don't think either candidate wants or can even get away with forcing their will down the throat of the other. At the end of the day, on June 5, for the sake of party unity--June 7--Howard Dean and the two candidates will have to get together if neither candidate has 2025, which is the margin that the rules require to win, and come up with a strategy. Each candidate will have to have buy into that strategy to determine who wins because if the loser and their supporters stalk away, then we will lose the general election. So, you know, this, this issue of how the superdelegates ought to vote, you know, this great epistemological, metaphysical issue, no one thought about it three months ago. To me, it is not a great moral issue. The great moral issue is defeating George Bush, John McCain, and coming up with a way that we can do--walk away from the convention unified. And neither Hillary Clinton nor Barack Obama, I think, want to have an internecine fight where one side is so bitter that the other feels that they can't enthusiastically support the winner.

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