‘Meet the Press’ transcript for Dec. 23, 2007

MR. RUSSERT:  You talked about September 11th in one of the Republican debates back in May, and this is what you said.

(Videotape)

REP. PAUL:  They don't come here to attack us because we're rich and we're free.  They come and they, and they attack us because we're over there.

(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT:  "Because we're over there." And then you added this on Tuesday: "But" al-Qaeda has "determination.  The determination comes from being provoked."

How have we, the United States, provoked al-Qaeda?

REP. PAUL:  Well, read what the lead--the ringleader says.  Read what Osama bin Laden said.  We had, we had a base, you know, in Saudi Arabia that was an affront to their religion, that was blasphemy as far as they were concerned. We were bombing Iraq for 10 years, we were--we've interfered in Iran since 1953.  Our CIA's been involved in the overthrow of their governments.  We're bought right now in the process of overthrowing that nation.  We side more with Israel and Pakistan, and, and they get annoyed with this.  How would we react if we were on their land--if they were on our land?  We would be very annoyed, and we'd be fighting mad.

MR. RUSSERT:  So under your doctrine, if we had--did not have troops in the Middle East, they would leave us alone.

REP. PAUL:  Not, not immediately, because they'd have to believe us.  But what would happen is the incentive for Osama bin Laden to recruit suicide terrorists would disappear.  Once we left Lebanon in the early '80s, the French and the Americans and Israelis left Lebanon, suicide terrorism virtually stopped, just like that.  But while we were there, that was suicide terrorism killed our Marines, because we were in Lebanon.  So we have to understand that.  We have to understand how we would react if some country did to us exactly what we do to them, and then we might have a better understanding of their motivation, why somebody would join the al-Qaeda. Since we've been over there al-Qaeda has more members now than they did before 9/11.  They probably had a couple hundred before 9/11.

MR. RUSSERT:  It sounds like you think that the problem is al-Qaeda--the problem is the United States, not al-Qaeda.

REP. PAUL:  No, it's both.  It's both--al-Qaeda becomes the violent.  It's sort of like if you step in a snake pit and you get bit, you know, who caused the trouble?  Because you stepped in the snake pit or because snakes bite you? So I think you have to understand both.  But why, why produce the incentive for these violent, vicious thugs to want to come here and kill us.

MR. RUSSERT:  Do you think there's an ideological struggle that Islamic fascists want to take over the world?

REP. PAUL:  Oh, I think some, just like the West is wanting to do that all the time.  Look at the way they look at us.  I mean, we're in a, we're in a 130 countries.  We have 700 bases.  How do you think they proposed that to their people, saying "What does America want to do?  Are they over here to be nice to us and teach us how to be good Democrats?"

MR. RUSSERT:  So you see a moral equivalency between the West and Islamic fascism.

REP. PAUL:  For some people, some radicals on each side that when we impose our will with force by a few number of people--not the American people--I'm talking the people who have hijacked our foreign policy, the people who took George Bush's foreign policy of a humble foreign policy and turned it into one of nation-building which he complained about.

MR. RUSSERT:  The president himself?

REP. PAUL:  The president himself has changed the policy.  You know, I mean, he ran--I liked the program he ran on.  That's what I defend.  And--but all of a sudden--and it didn't change after 9/11, it changed the first meeting of the Cabinet according to Paul O'Neal.  He says immediately it was on the table. When, when were we going to attack Iraq?

MR. RUSSERT:  You mentioned September 11th, a former aide of yours, Eric Dondero said this.  "When September 11th happened, he just completely changed," talking about you.  "One of the first things he said was not how awful the tragedy was, it was, `Now we're going to get big government.'" Was that your reaction?

REP. PAUL:  Well, I'm, I'm surprised somebody like that who's a disgruntled former employee who literally was put out.  But, yes, thought...

MR. RUSSERT:  He said he quit because he disagreed with you.

REP. PAUL:  Yeah, no.  The point is, Randolph Bourne says war is a helpless state.  I believe that statement.  When you have war, whether it's a war against drugs, war against terrorism, war, war overseas, war--the mentality of the people change and they're more willing to sacrifice their liberties in order to be safe and secure.  So, yes, right after 9/11 my reaction was, you know, it's going to be a lot tougher selling liberty.  But I'm pleasantly surprised that I'm still in the business of selling liberty and the Constitution and there's still a lot of enthusiasm for it.  So all the American people don't agree that we have to have the nanny state and have the government taking care of us.  So I have been encouraged.  I might have been too pessimistic immediately after 9/11 because, in a way, it has caused this reaction and this uprising in this country to say, "Enough is enough.  We don't need more Patriot Acts, we don't need more surveillance of our people. We don't need national ID cards.  We don't need the suspension of habeas corpus.  What we need is more freedom." So in one way I was pessimistic, but in another way, now, I'm more encouraged with the reception I'm getting with this message.

MR. RUSSERT:  And you actually go further.  You said this.  "Abolish the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Central Intelligence Agency and dismantle every other agency except the Justice and Defense Departments." And then you went on.  "If elected president, Paul says he would abolish public schools, welfare, Social Security and farm subsidies."

REP. PAUL:  OK, you may have picked that up 20 or 30 years ago, it's not part of my platform.  As a matter of fact, I'm the only one that really has an interim program.  Technically, a lot of those functions aren't constitutional. But the point is I'm not against the FBI investigation in doing a proper role, but I'm against the FBI spying on people like Martin Luther King.  I'm against the CIA fighting secret wars and overthrowing government and interfering...

MR. RUSSERT:  Would you abolish them?

REP. PAUL:  I would, I would not abolish all their functions, but I--the, the, the...

MR. RUSSERT:  What about public schools?  Are you still...

REP. PAUL:  OK, but let's go, let's go with the CIA.  They're, they're involved in, in, in torture.  I would abolish that, yes.  But I wouldn't abolish their right and our, our requirement to accumulate intelligence for national defense purposes.

MR. RUSSERT:  But if you...

REP. PAUL:  That's quite different.

MR. RUSSERT:  But if you eliminate the income tax, you take away half the revenues for the federal government.  What you're left with is the Defense Department, Social Security, Medicare and pensions.  Everything else is gone. So you have to start making choices if you're going to keep...

REP. PAUL:  All right.  We can.  The big one is overseas expenditure.  You have to develop a transition.  You have to start paying down the deficit, balance the budget.  But you have to say I believe the most reasonable place to save is in foreign policy, hundreds of billions of dollars.  Because it gets us into trouble, it ruins our national--our defense is poor now.  Then the Department of Education, who--we elect conservatives to get rid of the Department of Education.  We used to campaign on that.  And what did we do? We doubled the size.  I want to reverse that trend.

MR. RUSSERT:  What about public schools?

REP. PAUL:  That's what I'm trying to...

MR. RUSSERT:  Are you still for...

REP. PAUL:  No, I'm not--I've never, I've never taken the position--is it in my platform?  And...

MR. RUSSERT:  It was--when you ran for president in 1988, you called for the abolition of public schools.

REP. PAUL:  I, I bet that's a misquote.  I, I do not recall that.  I'd like to know where that came from, because I went...

MR. RUSSERT:  And Social Security?  You're OK with Social Security now?

REP. PAUL:  I think we need to get--give--offer the kids the chance to get out.  But right now, if I don't--if we don't save the money, we can't take care of the other.  For instance, Social Security, I never voted to spend one penny of Social Security money.  So I'm the one that has saved it.  Now, if I save the money in this military operation overseas, I say take that money--and, and I say this constantly--don't turn anybody out on the streets. People we have conditioned--yes, technically we shouldn't have them, and it'd be nice to get rid of them, but I would say take care of the people that are dependent on us.  Let them--and the only way you can do that is cut spending. If we don't, they're all going to be out in the street.  Because right now Social Security beneficiaries are getting 2 percent raises, their cost of living is going up 10 percent.  A dollar crisis is going to wipe them all out. That's my point.

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