On the campaign trail with John McCain

Chris Matthews Host of 'Hardball' • Profile

On Wednesday’s “Hardball,” Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain talked to Chris Matthews about the destruction of the CIA tapes and the race for 2008.

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST, 'HARDBALL:'  Senator, thank you.  Are you concerned about the burning of these torture tapes?

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Yes.   Yes, I am, and you hear that there were judges that said that that should not take place.  I'm told that there were people in the White House who that shouldn't take place.  And even if it was cleared with everybody, it still contributes enormously to the cynicism and skepticism in the world about what America does to people who are in our custody.  And so I think it was very wrong.  Whether it was illegal or not, we're obviously going through the process of the judges.  I understand there was a story today that the judge has ordered the administration people to come before his court tomorrow.

MATTHEWS:  Are you concerned that the administration people at the highest level like Alberto Gonzales, the attorney general and Harriet Miers, the White House counsel and Addington with the vice president, and somebody from the National Security Agency, all were involved in a meeting where this was discussed before the tapes were destroyed?

MCCAIN:  I think, if there was a meeting, and I don't doubt the media reports, but  if there was a meeting, it should be fully explained, if that issue was discussed.  You can't have something like that happen which would give the appearance that the CIA is a rogue agency.

MATTHEWS:  When the president's counsel is in a meeting like that and the president's attorney general, the man he appointed and the chief of staff of the vice president are in the meeting, are you worried the principals themselves, the president and the vice president weren't giving the go ahead to the destruction of this evidence?  Does that worry you as a possibility?

MCCAIN:  I think most subordinates don't act on a major thing like that without their boss's say so.  But I'm confident that now, we will have a pretty complete investigation, either through the attorney general and/or through the courts.

MATTHEWS:  You think we should find out whether the president was involved in the go-ahead to destroy these tapes?

MCCAIN:  Sure.  I think we should take the investigation wherever it leads.  But I would be surprised, very much surprised if the president were involved in that decision, just because I don't think he would do such a thing.

MATTHEWS:  It's hard to keep up with the way people look at things like torture.  You had firsthand experience.  Are you surprised that you're sort of the only one, the only voice in your party that's expressed really passionate concern about the misuse of the United States' authority when we have someone in our custody?

MCCAIN:  Well, it concerns me when people think that somehow that it is effective and it gives reliable and unreliable information.  But the thing that concerns me most of all is the moral standing of the United States in the world.  By the way, I'm not the only Republican.  Colin Powell has weighed in heavily on this…

MATTHEWS:  Yes.  Another soldier.

MCCAIN:  Yeah.  It's interesting.  Those who have served in uniform are uniformly against such a thing, and those who haven't seem to think that it's effective.  It's not effective, it's not reliable.  We tried Japanese for war crimes, after World War II, who water boarded American prisoners of war.  Now, how do you then justify, if we tried Japanese for committing war crimes, how can we justify doing that same thing? 

So, there's many arguments I can have, whether it be the moral high ground, whether it be effective or not, and whether we think that this, well, let me put it this way, I believe we're going to win this war against radical Islamic extremists in the ideological battleground.

MATTHEWS:  We'll be the good guys.

MCCAIN:  We'll have the moral high ground.  You lose the moral high ground when you do something like this.  Let me relate one incidence I had recently.  I was in Iraq, I met with a former high-ranking member of al Qaeda. 

I asked him, what was the reasons for their success?  He said, one was the lawlessness and total chaos after our initial victory, because we didn't have control of the country, and two, Abu Ghraib.  Abu Ghraib, he said, was his greatest recruiting tool.  I rest my case.

MATTHEWS:  You have some hostages to destiny yourself.  You've got service people in your family.

MCCAIN:  Yes.  And also my constiuents and what Colin Powell and a lot of the military worry about of course, as you well know, is that if we do this to people, then what's going to happen in future wars?  Not against al Qaeda, but were at war against another nation, and they decide that they're going to torture people because  our men and women in the military because we did.  And let me just add one point. 

Why do you think it is the British didn't torture German pilots during the Battle of Britain, where the survival of the British Empire, the island, was at stake and they captured German pilots?  I'll tell you, the main reason is, because they knew that British pilots were going to be in the hands of the Germans.

MATTHEWS:  Pretty soon.

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