‘Meet the Press’ transcript for Dec. 16, 2007

GOV. ROMNEY:  Well, a mandatory prison term?  No.  But here's what I would do.  I'd say once you've put in place an employment verification system--and that's a big phrase to describe something pretty simple.  I'd say to anybody who's coming here legally, they get a card with their name, biometric information, a number and their work status, and you--once you have those cards in place--that the only ones that can get them are people that are here legally--you then say to employers, "If you want to hire someone that's not a US citizen with a valid Social Security number, you ask for the card.  You then verify it on the computer, and you can hire them if it's a valid card if they have a card.  If they don't have a card and you hire them anyway, then you're going to be subject to the same kind of sanctions you get for not paying your taxes.  And that's typically fines, very substantial fines, they get larger and larger.  But a first offense employer hiring someone who's not legal, putting them in jail, I, I doubt that's...

MR. RUSSERT:  But if you wanted to end illegal immigration, if you...

GOV. ROMNEY:  Well, I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure...

MR. RUSSERT:  ...came down hard on employers.

GOV. ROMNEY:  I'm sure capital punishment would come down hard as well, but I'm not, I'm not suggesting that kind of penalty.  But I do believe that, that sanctioning employers with substantial fines--and potentially worse if, if they were egregious, continuous offenders could be called for.  But what employers tell me, and I, and I talk to a lot of people in small business, they say, "It is almost impossible for us to know who's here legally and illegally." In fact, there's a federal law--you'll find this interesting--a federal law prohibits an employer from, quote, "discriminating against a document that's given to them by someone applying for work." So if they look at something that looks like it's a forgery, they're not allowed to discriminate against that document.  This puts them in a real catch-22, typical government work.  And what we have to do instead is say, "We're going to allow you, as employers, to finally have access to an employment verification system that says who's here legally and who's here illegally.  If you hire an illegal, now we're going to whack you hard with fines and penalties," and potentially even worse if they're repeat offenders.

MR. RUSSERT:  We're going to take a quick break.  More of our discussion with Mitt Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts.  He's running for the Republican nomination for president of the United States.  We'll be right back.

                               (Announcements)

MR. RUSSERT:  More of our Meet the Candidates 2008 series with Governor Mitt Romney, Republican candidate for president, right after this.

                               (Announcements)

MR. RUSSERT:  And we're back with Governor Mitt Romney.

As you campaign around the country, you talk about your record in Massachusetts with budgets and taxes and so forth.  The Cato Institute, a conservative think tank, gave you a C as governor of Massachusetts.  And they say, "His first budget, presented under the cloud of a $2 billion deficit, balanced the budget with some spending cuts, but" "$500 million increase in various fees was the largest component of the budget fix." The AP says it this way:  "When Romney wanted to balance the Massachusetts budget, the blind, mentally retarded and gun owners were asked to help pay.  In all, then-Gov. Romney proposed creating 33 new fees," "increasing 57 others." The head of the Bay State Council of the Blind said that your name was "Fee-Fee"; that you just raised fee after fee after fee.  That's a tax.

GOV. ROMNEY:  Well, let's, let's step back and get all the numbers right. First of all, it was nearly a $3 billion budget gap that we faced as we came into office, my team and I.  Secondly, we raised fees, and we generated about $240 million worth of increased revenue.  So of a $3 billion budget gap, we raised fees of about $240 million.  Now, these were not broad-based fees.  I said I'm not going to go after driver's license fees or automobile fees for registration because these apply to everybody, and any...

MR. RUSSERT:  Duplicate driver's license fee.

GOV. ROMNEY:  Because, because if they're broad, broad-based, they, they have the--they have a sense, a feeling like a tax.  But a fee is different than a tax in that it's for a particular service.  And we had some fees that hadn't been changed in over a decade.  For instance, people who had signs on the interstate pointing out where a gas station was or where McDonald's was, McDonald's might pay us a fee of $200 a year for such a sign.  We upped that pretty dramatically.  And so, of the roughly $3 billion of shortfall, we raised fees by about $240 million.  We were able to balance our budget in a very difficult time without raising taxes...

MR. RUSSERT:  A fee's not a tax?

GOV. ROMNEY:  A fee--well, a fee--if it were a tax, it'd be called--it'd be called a tax.  But...

MR. RUSSERT:  Governor, that's, that's gimmick.

GOV. ROMNEY:  No, it's, it's reality.  It is.  But--and I have no--I'm not trying to hide from the fact we raised fees.  We raised fees $240 million.

MR. RUSSERT:  I think what people try to get at is that when you were governor of Massachusetts, you were a moderate Republican, and that's the way you won--on abortion, on stem cell research, on gun control and immigration, on raising fees.  When you debated Ted Kennedy for, for the Senate, it, it's--well, let me show you what you said last Friday about Ronald Reagan. This was Friday night, Ronald Reagan according to Mitt Romney.

(Videotape)

GOV. ROMNEY:  The right way for America to proceed when we face the kind of challenges we face is to pursue the strategy which Ronald Reagan pursued when we faced the challenges of the last century.  He brought our taxes down a lot. That caused our economy to take off.

(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT:  That's a full embrace.  When you ran for the Senate, here's Mitt Romney on Ronald Reagan.

(Videotape)

GOV. ROMNEY:  Look, I was an independent during the time of Reagan-Bush.  I'm not trying to return to Reagan-Bush.

(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT:  People see that.

GOV. ROMNEY:  OK, Tim, let's go back and let's, let's--I'm going to reject the premise, to begin with because, when I ran against Ted Kennedy, I realized the shot was a long shot, to beat Ted Kennedy in Massachusetts.  But I was tired of his liberal policies.  And as you'll recall, I fought for the death penalty, I said secure the borders, I said at the same time we're going to completely redo our welfare system and get rid of the old welfare system.  I ran as a Republican and a conservative.  And when I ran for governor in Massachusetts, you were there.  First question you asked me in the debate, "Tell me about the death penalty." I was for the death penalty.  I was for English immersion in our schools.  I said, I said...

MR. RUSSERT:  Could you, could you be...

GOV. ROMNEY:  Let me keep--wait, hold on.  I said...

MR. RUSSERT:  No, no, no.  This is a fair question.

GOV. ROMNEY:  See--yeah.  Yeah.

MR. RUSSERT:  Could you be elected governor of Massachusetts on your current platform, the one you know espose--espouse about abortion, gay rights, gun control, stem cell research, immigration?

GOV. ROMNEY:  There's one what I changed, and that's with regards to abortion.  And, and with my position on abortion was--I was effectively pro-choice and I became pro-life.  I did the same--I made the same--had the same experience that Ronald Reagan had...

MR. RUSSERT:  Governor...

GOV. ROMNEY:  ...that Henry Hyde had.

MR. RUSSERT:  ...you look at those comments and quotes all--on every one of these issues, there has been an--a--an evolution, an intellectual journey on all these issues.

GOV. ROMNEY:  That--Tim, I'll reject that.  And--because we just talked about stem cell research.

MR. RUSSERT:  All right.

GOV. ROMNEY:  And I described what my position was.

MR. RUSSERT:  Let...

GOV. ROMNEY:  I just talked about, about guns.  I told you what my position was, and what I, what I did as governor; the fact that I received the endorsement of the NRA.  And so...

MR. RUSSERT:  You say you'd be a more effective leader on gay rights than Ted Kennedy.

GOV. ROMNEY:  And, and let me--let's, let's do them one by one.  OK, Tim? Let's just go through them one by one.  And, and here's my view.  I don't believe in discriminating against someone based upon their sexual orientation. And so I would be effective in trying to bring greater recognition of the, of the rights of people not, not to be discriminated against.  Let me...

MR. RUSSERT:  You said--you said that you would co-sponsor the...

GOV. ROMNEY:  Tim, Tim, Tim...

MR. RUSSERT:  Wait a minute.  Wait a minute.  This is important.

GOV. ROMNEY:  OK, fine.

MR. RUSSERT:  You said that you would sponsor the Employment Nondiscrimination Act.  Do you still support it?

GOV. ROMNEY:  At the state level.  I think it makes sense at the state level for states to put in provision of this.

MR. RUSSERT:  Now, you said you would sponsor it at the federal level.

GOV. ROMNEY:  I would not support at the federal level, and I changed in that regard because I think that policy makes more sense to be evaluated or to be implemented at the state level.  And let me describe why.

MR. RUSSERT:  So you did--you did change.

GOV. ROMNEY:  Oh, Tim, if you're looking for someone who's never changed any positions on any policies, then I'm not your guy.  I, I do learn from experience.  If you want someone who doesn't learn from experience, who stubbornly takes a, a position on, on a particular act and says, "Well, I'm never changing my view based on what I've learned," that, that doesn't make sense to me.

MR. RUSSERT:  But it seems to be a lot of issues.  Let me give, give you an example.  Healthcare, something that you worked on very hard as governor with Ted Kennedy, compromise.  And you talked about if you have automobile insurance, you need health insurance.  A human being is more important than an automobile.  And if you don't have buy health insurance--if you're too poor, we'll help you.  But if you don't buy it, there's going to be a penalty. You're going to get fined, in effect, a couple hundred bucks.

Mitt Romney runs for president.  Healthcare plan.  No mandate.  No conversation about health insurance, auto insurance.  No fine if you don't sign up.  Why, if it's good for Massachusetts and it's working in Massachusetts, wouldn't you apply it to the rest of the country.

GOV. ROMNEY:  I would.

MR. RUSSERT:  A mandate?

GOV. ROMNEY:  No.  Let me tell you what I would do, just exactly as I described.  I like what we did in Massachusetts.  I think it's a great plan. But I'm a federalist.  I don't believe in applying what works in one state to all states if different states have different circumstances.

So let's look, for instance.  The plan we put together in Massachusetts I think is working in Massachusetts.  I sure hope so.  We're going to get more information about how well it's working, of course.  But Massachusetts has roughly 7 percent of our population uninsured.  Texas has 25 percent.  Given the kind of differences between states, I'm not somebody who's going to say what I did in Massachusetts I'm going to now tell every state they have to do it the same way.  Now, I happen to like what we did.  I think it's a good model for other states.  Maybe not every state, but most.  And so what I'd do at the federal level is give to every state the same kind of flexibility we got from the federal government, as well as some carrots and sticks to actually get all their citizens insured.  And I think a lot of states will choose what we did.  I wouldn't tell them they have to do our plan.  Governor Schwarzenegger, for instance, in California, has his own healthcare plan. He's going about it in a different way.  I like mine better than his; he likes his better than mine.

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