‘Meet the Press’ transcript for Dec. 9, 2007

Another issue where your judgment has been questioned, Bernard Kerik, your police commissioner.  Here’s how the Daily News reported it:  “Bernard Kerik lied, schemed and sold out the city—all under the nose of his mentor and pal, presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani.  That is the stark portrait painted in the 16-count indictment unsealed in Federal Court.  The indictment charges Kerik with conspiracy, tax fraud, making false statements” “depriving the city of his honest services.  If convicted, he faces up to 142 years in prison” “up to $4.75 million in fines.  The indictment starts in” ‘98, “after Giuliani made Kerik correction commissioner, continues through 2000, when he named him police commissioner, and ends in 2006.”

And there are reports, Mr. Mayor, that according to Mr. Kuriansky, involved in the city investigative unit, that he briefed you and Dennison Young about Bernard Kerik and his relationship with Lawrence Ray before you appointed him police commissioner, and there are documents that demonstrate this.  Mr. Ray, as you well know, was the best man for Bernard Kerik, had been indicted for his involvement in a company called Interstate Industrial.  Do you recall the warning you were given about Mr. Kerik?

MR. GIULIANI:  I don’t.  I don’t, and, and I’ll explain it to you.  First of all, this is very, you know, this is a very tragic and terrible situation for everybody.  Now, the reality is I made a mistake.  I made a mistake in not vetting him carefully enough.  And it’s my responsibility; I should have.  And I’ve appointed hundreds, thousands of people; to that level, probably hundreds of people, and I have made few mistakes.  Most of them have been correct, most of them have been outstanding people.  Most of them have been outstanding enough to get exceptional results with their services—reducing crime or reducing welfare, turning around the city of New York, prosecuting organized crime, prosecuting white collar crime.  So I think my judgment on appointments turns out to almost always be very good, with, unfortunately, some mistakes that I’ve made.  This is one of them, and I’m really sorry for it and have, and have learned from it.

On the other side, Bernard Kerik’s public performance, meaning as corrections commissioner, as police commissioner was excellent.  He reduced—helped to reduce violence in the city jails by 70, 80 percent.  “60 Minutes” did a whole piece on how he had—he and his team had turned New York City jails into one of the safest in the country.  He reduced crime in New York.  He was a hero in every respect on September 11 and in the days after that.  I watched him—we were trapped in a building together, I watched him operate.  There was this other thing going on that I should have known about.  I take responsibility for it.  I should have figured it out, and I’ve learned from it and will not make that mistake in the future.

With regard to the, the, the briefing, Ed—who, tragically, has passed away from, from cancer, and was a close friend of mine for many, many years; we were assisting U.S. attorneys together—told me that he had, had some recollection of briefing me on this.  He also told me that he had cleared Bernard Kerik for the appointment, as well as the other person that was going to be appointed.  And that it may be that because he had cleared him that it’s something that I don’t recall clearly.  He is—he was not sure whether he briefed me or not, he just said he had a note—here’s the—when you say there’s evidence to suggest this, here’s what it is:  it’s a, it’s a notation of an upcoming meeting that has his initials, my initials, Dennison Young’s initials and some notation about Ray and a company called Interstate, to brief me.  The question is, did he or didn’t he?  I don’t remember it.  Dennison Young...

MR. RUSSERT:  He says he—he said he did.

MR. GIULIANI:  No, what he said is, when he looked—first of all, he said he didn’t remember it.  That was his first recollection.  Wait, wait, this is important...

MR. RUSSERT:  Yep.

MR. GIULIANI:  ...we get it right.  He first said that he didn’t remember briefing me.  Then when he saw his notes, the note that I just described, he said “I must have because I have these notes here.” We talked about it.  He thinks he must have because of the notes there.  I don’t remember him doing it.  Dennison Young doesn’t remember him doing it.  He does remember, however, that he did tell us that Bernard Kerik was clear to be appointed.  In other words, he was, he was—there was no ethical reason why he shouldn’t be appointed.  And then we, we went ahead and did it.  I think if I had of known that, I wouldn’t have appointed him.  But that’s—I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s the honest recollection that everybody has of it.

MR. RUSSERT:  But that was for policeman commissioner.  When you recommended to the president of the United States in 2004 that Bernard Kerik be the secretary of homeland security...

MR. GIULIANI:  Right.

MR. RUSSERT:  ...the number one position in this country to fight terrorism, you knew at that time that Lawrence Ray had been indicted, had pleaded guilty. There was a lot of information available.

MR. GIULIANI:  Right.  I did—this is—that...

MR. RUSSERT:  You knew none of that?

MR. GIULIANI:  Was it available?  Sure, it was available.  I didn’t find it, which is what—why I made a mistake.  I should’ve checked that, you’re absolutely right.  I mean, I—when that happened...

MR. RUSSERT:  Did you place personal loyalty over integrity?

MR. GIULIANI:  No, I did not.  I didn’t—I would never, I would never do that.  I—what I did, here’s what I did do wrong.  You want—the mistake was, I should have checked it out much more carefully before he went forward for any of these positions.  And I didn’t.  I didn’t check it out carefully enough.  I should’ve done that.  I usually do, and 95, 98, 99 percent of the times I’ve gotten it right.  Gosh, I made a mistake.  I, I learned from it. In the future, I’ll be much more careful about it.  I should’ve checked him out much more carefully, and I didn’t.

MR. RUSSERT:  Mr. Kerik at the time was also having an affair with Judith Regan, his publisher, and were using an apartment that had been donated as a haven for rescue and recovery workers from the September 11^th site at World Trade Center.  Were you aware of that?

MR. GIULIANI:  First of all, it’s an allegation, so I, I can’t tell you if it’s true or not, but the reality is I wasn’t aware of it either way.

MR. RUSSERT:  In any way, shape or form?

MR. GIULIANI:  Any way, shape or form.  I had no knowledge of that, and now I...

MR. RUSSERT:  But today you regret, you regret...

MR. GIULIANI:  That isn’t necessarily what I found out.  What I’m talking about—I don’t know whether I would’ve found that out or not, because I don’t know whether it’s true or not—but...

MR. RUSSERT:  You didn’t know of his relationship with Judith Regan?

MR. GIULIANI:  I, I knew she was his publisher.  I didn’t know the rest of it.  But the reality is I should’ve found out the other facts that you’re talking about.  Some of these facts are allegations.  I guess we’ll find out at some point if they’re true or not.  But there were enough facts known where I should not have recommended him.  I should’ve found them out.  It was my fault.  I take responsibility for it.  It wasn’t any of the people that worked for me, it was my fault.

MR. RUSSERT:  That’s a big misjudgment to make when you recommend someone to the president for that kind of a sensitive job.

MR. GIULIANI:  Well, look, I’ve, I’ve recommended and appointed thousands of people over the years.  So I think the way you find out is my judgment generally very good and sometimes bad, like any other human being is, what kind of results have I gotten with the people that I appointed?  How, how could I have mostly bad judgment about people and have reduced crime in New York by 60 percent?  How can I, how can I not have pretty good judgment about the people who work for me and not been able to turn around the United States attorney’s office or do the turnaround of New York City or be successful in, in business?  So the reality is—and I, I write about this in my book—I know my judgment is not going to be 100 percent correct.  You try to get to 100 percent.  It’s been correct enough so that I’ve had a great deal of success, I’ve been able to deal with crises very effectively, and I’ve been able to turn things around that other people haven’t been able to turn around.  It doesn’t mean that I can’t make—as one of my predecessors, Fiorello LaGuardia, used to say, he used to say, “I don’t make many mistakes, but when I make them, they’re big ones.”

MR. RUSSERT:  Also has been questioned, criticisms about your security details for your then-girlfriend Judi Nathan.  Here’s a photograph of her walking her dog being escorted by a New York City policeman.  This headline in the Daily News now with “New questions over” “security” details “for Rudy’s girlfriend, driving Miss Judi.” Bernard Kerik had said that there had been no police protecting Miss Nathan until December 2000.  Now your folks have told the Daily News that, in fact, there was some security before that date.  Why was it appropriate for you to give...

MR. GIULIANI: I...

MR. RUSSERT:  ...taxpayer-funded security to your girlfriend?

MR. GIULIANI:  Well, Tim, for many years, I’ve had to live with security.

MR. RUSSERT:  This is not for you.  This is for her.

MR. GIULIANI:  Well, this is—let, let me explain because it has something to—it all has to do with me.  All of this came about because of me, and all of it came about because of the work that I did.  I’ve had security on and off for over 20 years.  It’s not something I asked for, it’s not something you particularly want, it’s not something she would want.  This comes about because of threats, and people threaten to kill you , people threaten to harm you.  I had these threats back when I was the United States attorney.  There was a revelation in court of one that had been secret for a long time.  I don’t, I don’t talk, talk about them.  I’m—this is a part of my profession also, evaluating threats.  And the reality is that my family has been subjected to threats, my loved ones have been subjected to threats, my assistants have been subjected to threats.  When they happen, I have—I handle them in a professional way.  If they’re threats about other people, I’ll make the evaluation of it.  If it’s a threat about me or somebody I love or somebody that’s close to me, I turn it over to professionals to evaluate. I’ve, I’ve been fortunate to have very good professionals that have taken care of these threats for me, for my family and for my loved ones—United States marshals, when I was United States attorney, the New York City Police Department.  Every single thing done here was done based upon the assessment of someone else that this was necessary.  They made the choice.  My wife, Judith, honestly, would prefer not to have to have security.

MR. RUSSERT:  But let me ask you...

MR. GIULIANI:  She doesn’t want to—she’s doesn’t want to live with, with these threats.

MR. RUSSERT:  But this, this was when, this was when no one knew she was your girlfriend.  This was before September 11^th, 2001.  There were—no one knew who she was.

MR. GIULIANI:  They were—well, first of all, that isn’t correct.  Secondly, these were all based upon threat assessments made by the New York City Police Department and all based on their analysis of what was necessary to protect her life, my life, other people’s lives.

MR. RUSSERT:  Before it was known that you were even dating her, there were threats against her?

MR. GIULIANI:  The threats were—the threats were after.  The threats were after.

MR. RUSSERT:  But this protection was...

MORE FROM MEET THE PRESS

Meet the Press Section Front

Sunday's Meet the Press guest list Nov. 22: Senate roundtable, Brinker, Snyderman Nov. 15: Clinton, Duncan, Gingrich, Sharpton Nov. 8: Casey, Barbour, Rendell, roundtable, Brokaw Nov. 1: Tim Geithner, David Plouffe, roundtable Oct. 25: Cornyn, Schumer, Burnett, Sorkin, roundtable Oct. 18: Jarrett, Dodd, Kyl, Shriver, Podesta Oct. 11: Levin, Graham, McCaffrey, Myers, roundtable Oct. 4: Ambassador Susan Rice, roundtable Sept. 27: Bill Clinton, Paterson, Kyl, Webb Meet the Press Section Front   Add Meet the Press headlines to your news reader: