Obama speaks with MSNBC's Mika Brzezinski

Obama: Our combined loan debt.  And the only reason that we’re not in debt today is that Barack wrote two bestselling novels.  I sort of joke with him that it was his financial plan – he’s like “I’m gonna write a book!”  It’s like, “Oh, great, alrighty”, it’s like, “let’s put all our, you know, cards on red”  But that paid off unexpectedly, and that’s why we’re not in debt right now. We would still be paying off our loans, and that is not a unique situation.  So I find myself cautioning young people to really think about the financial burdens of going to law school and going to college.  Because I don’t want people to come out on the other end you know, with this unexpected debt.  And we shouldn’t put young people in that situation.  In college, if you’re prepared, and you’re ready to go to school, and you’ve done what you’re supposed to do, every young person in this country should be able to go to college.  And then if they choose not to go, they should be able to find a job where they’re gonna make a decent wage. And they’re gonna be able to raise a family, and make sure that their children’s lives are a bit better than their own.  And that’s not the country we’re living in right now.  And that’s why I so desperately want Barack Obama to be our president.  Cause I know he’s somebody that gets it.  Because we’re living it.  You know, we’re still not so far away from these challenges.  I’m still going to Target, buying Halloween costumes.  I’m still standing on the soccer fields with moms, and hearing the complaints and challenges.  We are just now at a point where we’re not worried about our financial future, and that’s not a guarantee.  You know, we don’t know what life holds.  Our financial futures aren’t secure – we still have to make sure that our girls can go to college.  So sometimes, I worry that politicians have lost sight of that.  You know, somehow, at some level, they don’t get these struggles.  That it doesn’t mean as much to them because they don’t fight for it.  And I know that Barack knows this deeply, and I know he’s gonna fight for it, because he knows that we’ve got to do better by regular folks.

Brzezinski: Speaking of knowing your husband, how involved are you when it comes to the issues?  I guess I consider myself my husband’s editor, he’s a journalist.  My mother definitely considers herself my father’s editor, and they will really duke it out over the issues.  I mean, they don’t hold back in terms of giving each other their opinions.  So given the fact that you’re educated and accomplished in your own right, surely you have opinions.  How would you characterize your role in the marriage, in terms of advising on politics and policy?

Obama: You know, I think the best way to characterize it is that I’m a “big picture values” kind of person.  When Barack and I talk, we talk about the problems that face people, we talk about struggles – we talk about these stories.  Um, we talk about feelings.  We talk about broad concepts of family values.  You know, those are the things that – so, it’s more “big picture”.  I don’t spend any time at all, because I don’t have the time, to sort of dig deep into his energy policy.  Not my forte, I’m not an energy person, I’m, you know, not necessarily the one that has particularly interesting insight, but I do know values.  I do know what I believe in.  I do know what makes sense.  I know common sense, and I know when things are not right or fair.

Brzezinski:So if something doesn’t make sense to you, would you tell him?

Obama: Absolutely absolutely as he would tell me we talk all the time about what makes sense, what would make sense in the lives of our own children and what would make sense for the children of this country. We talk about that all the time.

Brzezinski: So I'm just trying to think of an example where you might share your opinion with him. You've been hearing I'm sure as I have a lot of debate over whether Barack Obama has been too passive in taking on Hillary Clinton and it's definitely evolving on that even this morning on meet the press, so given the debate on whether he's been too passive when it comes to Hillary Clinton and this sort of open call you might have heard in the media building up to the debates or events to take her on and attack her, he's gotten a lot of unsolicited advice on this, what is Michelle's advice?

Obama: Yes, we talked about this, we definitely talked about this before we entered the race because our view is we're not doing this to win and you can't win at all costs and sometimes that's what politics has become and that's what the press is saying if you want to win you've got to kill her you know you've got to rip her apart, while you know if that's the only way you can win which we don't believe is that case, if that's all that politics is then we've digressed as a society to a point where that's the only way we can work out issue you know no wonder we're such a divided country and if Barack wants to be a different kind of leader then his approach to politics has to be different and we also talked about the fact that you know Barack is who he is and as a country we always wonder whether politics changes people and one of the things we've desperately tried to do is not to allow our political lives to change who we are fundamentally.  But that's why I question our country I say you know on the one hand you want people to be authentic and true but then the question becomes what do you do when you get that when you're handed someone who's actually going to show you who they are.  And that's not Barack's challenge, that's the nations challenge and I want to really test that, so I don't want Barack to be anyone other than who he is because if America doesn't accept that then I want America to own that. I want them to look themselves in the face and say you had a choice, you had a choice to choose someone who was decent, someone who was a uniter, someone who was going to be honest, who was going to tell you the truth, all these things you say you want, and then you get it and you trip, you freak out, and you question it and you worry, and is it true, and that's on us, that's not the candidates, that's not the polls that's not the press, that's there job there job is to make you scrappy that makes better news. But what does America believe, so we've been very clear on that I don't want barack to be anyone other than who he is because we certainly don't want to spend the next 4 or 8 years in the White House trying to live up to a persona that isn't true. What a hassle. I want to be able to be me and I want America to know that if they vote for barack that's who they get and I am who they get and either they want it or they don't, but I'm certainly not going to change and we're not going to change to just win. Because the point isn't winning it's changing, it's changing the country, its changing America, it's changing the way you live. It's throwing this game out, shaking it up and throwing it out the window, because it's not just playing it better than the people who played it before.

Brzezinski: So let's talk about changing the game a little bit. I'm interested in this issue of race that keep coming up and is now evolving and how you perceive how this conversation is going. The polls show your husband is trailing Hillary 46% to 37% in the African American community. What is going on?

Obama: First of all I think that that's not gonna hold. I'm completely confident. Black America will wake up and get it, but what we're dealing with in the black community is just the natural fear of possibility, ok and when I look at my life, you know the stuff that we see in these polls has played out my whole life and I've always been told by someone that I'm not ready that I can't do something, my scores weren't high enough, you know there's always that doubt in the back of the minds of people of color, people who have been oppressed, who have never been given the real opportunities that you never really believe, that you believe somehow that somehow someone is better than you, you know deep down inside you doubt that you can really do this cause that's all you've been told is no, wait, that's all you hear and you hear it from people who love you  not because they don't care about you but because they're afraid. They're afraid something might happen to you.

Brzezinski: It's interesting you say that, excuse me, because the stewardess yesterday, a 52 year African American and I asked her are you interested in Barack Obama and would you vote for him and she said I don't think so because he probably can't win because he's black.

Obama: That's right, that the physiology that's going on in our souls and our heads and I understand it, I know where it's coming from you know and I think it's one of the horrible legacies of racism and discrimination and depression you know it keeps people down in their souls in a way where you know sometimes they can't move beyond it. But the truth of the matter is that that's something we're gonna have to get over as a community and you do it by forging ahead fearlessly. I would not be where I am, I wouldn't have gone to Princeton, I wouldn't have gone to Harvard I certainly wouldn't be a practicing attorney, neither would Barack if we listened to that doubt. You know, and there are a lot of kids who I know who aren't pushing themselves or going for what they know they can do because of that doubt. We have to move beyond it not just for Barack in this Presidency, but for the future of our community we’ve got to show people of color a different possibility. And I think that once they see what's possible then they own it, they believe it, I think that some black folks think that Barack won't win because the white people won't vote for Barack.


Brzezinski: There's probably a lot of different spins on this.

Obama: There are a lot of different spins. There’s a lot that's going on, it's very complicated, it's not easy.

Brzezinski: It's a huge psychological barrier to overcome.

Obama: It's a huge psychological barrier but I put part and truth. You know we approach politics in a lot of different ways. Barack has been told in every race that he's ever run that he shouldn't do it, he couldn't raise the money, that his name was too funny, his background too exotic, we've heard that, that's why this, this stuff now is like hey here we go again, but in every instance his view, our view, has been that if you tell people the truth you can connect with people right here and now. If you can break through the noise, then people recognize the truth, that honesty does win out. Now you can call that naive, but that's all we've got is the hope that the truth and honesty and authenticity will win out and I think that for the black community we have to shake off our fear because change doesn't happen without risk taking you know Rosa Parks wasn't supposed to stay on, sit on that bus, Martin Luther King wasn't supposed to speak out I mean we have a whole history of people who have taken risks far greater than anything that we're doing, this is nothing compared to the history we come from, so our view is we're doing exactly what we were told to do by our leaders by our elders that you get the best education you can get, that you work hard, that you bring that education back and that you give back and that you push, you push the next generation to be better, that's what we're doing, now people have to erace that and the one other thing that I think there is at play that people like Barack and I know is there is no magic to this stuff, it's like the first time when I set foot on Princeton, when I first got in I thought there's no way I can compete with these kids I mean I got in but I'm not supposed to be here, then I get there and I'm like is this all there is, you know, I mean I thought these kids had the answers, and the truth was that the toughest thing was getting there, the hardest part of Princeton was getting in, you know, so yeah I excel, I got lots of As and I graduated with departmental honors and I got into Harvard and then the more you achieve the more you realize that they don't know anymore than I do it's just that they believe in themselves in a way that's very different. That's why Barack and I are very confident in his ability to lead and his ability to know that people who have sense and are looking for good judgment will see beyond race, but there are a lot of people of color who've never had that, who have never been given the opportunity to sit at the table to say you're no smarter than me, you don't have the answers. That's what we want to show our community that you can do this too, this isn't magic it's common sense. It's heart, it's truth, it's doable you know that's the roof that I want to knock off in barack's presidency, that's why he's who we need right now, he's going to change perception among so many people, black, white, young, old, you know when I walk into a town hall meeting in Iowa and people look at me and they can connect to me, not because of my race, but because of my story, my values, the things that really bind us as American, that means more than when they here that from Hillary quite frankly because they assume they can connect with her you know what I say is that yes, you know how we're living and thinking in Chicago is no different, so don't let them keep dividing us up around issues that don't matter because we do believe in the same things, we want the same things we can work together on this stuff.

Brzezinski: Now it seems like you are almost, or you are speaking directly to the Black community here about this psychological barrier this fear of possibilities, you have Wall Street journal doing a front page article about whether or not a qualified African American can win the While House, to those who say Barack Obama cannot possibly win the election because he is black what do you say?

Obama: I say wait and see you know wait and see. Barack has been doing stuff he's not supposed to, I'm used to doing stuff that people told me I wasn't supposed to do that's my whole life. It's like ok here we go again you know telling me I can't do something before I even try. I mean, that's just not healthy. It's just not healthy. It's not healthy for people, it's not healthy for young people to hear those messages from anyone because it's not true. It's like me going into your house and telling your daughter who she's going to be today. You wouldn't allow that.

Brzezinski: And she wouldn't either.

Obama: And she wouldn't either, but fortunately she already has the self-assurance to know who she can be. Now you imagine millions of children who don't have that. They don't have parents who were affirming them you know they don't go to schools where teachers were affirming them. Everyday they hear what they can't be. The Wall Street polls don't even begin to touch on that. That's why I'm like give it up, stop it, because you can't start polling now, you've gotta start at the root cause of this. This stuff is deep and we haven't touched it as a nation. We don't deal with pain that has been caused by racism and division. We don't deal with it. And then we're surprised when it rears its head among whites and blacks. We haven't dealt with it and it's hurting all of us. It's hurting all of us. We can't afford to have generations of children of any race believing they can't be exactly who they think they should be.

Brzezinski: It's frustrating.

Obama: It is, I want us to be better. We need to be, we don’t' have a choice. You know when I talk to people and I tell them what world I want my girls to grow up in, it's not enough that they're ok, it's not enough that your girls are ok. We can't claim to be a nation that loves children and then allow these polls and make these statements about what people can do based on their race you know children aren't stupid, they know they're part of that and they're confused, they're deeply confused with what they know about themselves inside and then what they hear, we've got to stop that.

Brzezinski: Now we've got two more questions for you and then ... (clip cuts off)

Brzezinski: I’ve read that you said initially you were a little wary of your husband running.  And that you might have even been a little skeptical about politics, is that fair?

Obama: Absolutely. More than fair. It’s true. It’s not fair, it’s true.

Brzezinski: And I think that at this point you must have considered not only your husband’s ability to do the job, as you had said, but your own.  So what is it that you bring to the table, as opposed to the other potential first ladies out there?

Obama: You know, I think it’s who I am.  I don’t think it’s so much, what I bring is different from what Barack brings.  It’s truth.  One thing that I hope people understand is that I will always be authentically me.  That people won’t have to wonder what I feel, what I think, what I believe, I think that’s one of the reasons I’m supporting Barack.  I think what we need is a politics of truth, and a politics of honesty, and a politics of real conversations among people and not dancing around issues.  Because it just doesn’t get us anywhere.  It does me no good to spend my time as first lady pretending to be something other than who I am.  Let’s talk honestly about the challenges that we face.  So that’s what I bring that’s unique from any other first lady – I mean, I don’t know them well enough to know, I can’t make that comparison, but I know that this is who I am.

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