Sept. 26 Democratic debate transcript

Russert: I want to move to another subject, and this involves a comment that a guest on "Meet the Press" made, and I want to read it, as follows: "Imagine the following scenario.  We get lucky.  We get the number three guy in Al Qaida.  We know there's a big bomb going off in America in three days and we know this guy knows where it is.

Don't we have the right and responsibility to beat it out of him?  You could set up a law where the president could make a finding or could guarantee a pardon.

President (sic) Obama -- would you do that as president?

Obama: America cannot sanction torture.  It's a very straightforward principle, and one that we should abide by.  Now, I will do whatever it takes to keep America safe.  And there are going to be all sorts of hypotheticals and emergency situations and I will make that judgment at that time.

But what we cannot do is have the president of the United States state, as a matter of policy, that there is a loophole or an exception where we would sanction torture.  I think that diminishes us and it sends the wrong message to the world.

Russert: Senator Biden, would you allow this presidential exception?

Biden: No, I would not.  And I met, up here in New Hampshire, with 17 three- and four-star generals who, after my making a speech at Drake Law School, pointing out I would not under any circumstances sanction torture, I thought they were about to read me the riot act.

Biden: Seventeen of our four-star, three-star generals said, "Biden, will you make a commitment you will never use torture?"  It does not work.

It is part of the reason why we got the faulty information on Iraq in the first place is because it was engaged in by one person who gave whatever answer they thought they were going to give in order to stop being tortured.  It doesn't work.  It should be no part of our policy ever -- ever.

Russert: Senator Clinton, this is the number three man in Al Qaida.  We know there's a bomb about to go off, and we have three days, and we know this guy knows where it is.

Should there be a presidential exception to allow torture in that kind of situation?

Clinton: You know, Tim, I agree with what Joe and Barack have said.  As a matter of policy it cannot be American policy period.

I met with those same three- and four-star retired generals, and their principal point -- in addition to the values that are so important for our country to exhibit -- is that there is very little evidence that it works.

Now, there are a lot of other things that we need to be doing that I wish we were: better intelligence; making, you know, our country better respected around the world; working to have more allies.

But these hypotheticals are very dangerous because they open a great big hole in what should be an attitude that our country and our president takes toward the appropriate treatment of everyone.  And I think it's dangerous to go down this path.

Russert: The guest who laid out this scenario for me with that proposed solution was William Jefferson Clinton last year.  So he disagrees with you.

Clinton: Well, he's not standing here right now.

(Applause)

Russert: So there is a disagreement?

Clinton: Well, I'll talk to him later.

(Laughter)

Russert: Well, that raises a question: Which foreign policy decisions of the Clinton administration were you involved in or did you advise?

Clinton: Well, I have always said that my husband and I started a conversation 36 years ago and it never stopped.  So I was certainly involved in talking about a lot of what went on in terms of the president's decisions.  But I know very well that the president makes the decision.  Everyone in the White House is there because of one person -- the president -- including the spouse of the president.

Ultimately, the president has to sift through everything that is recommended and make her decision.  What I believe is that it is the ultimate responsibility of a president to seek out a broad cross- section of advisers who will have different points of view and provide different perspectives, and that's what I intend to do, and that is certainly what my husband did as well.

Russert: Anyone else what to disagree with President Clinton on torture?

Dodd: Yes, I do.

Russert: Go ahead, Senator Dodd.

Dodd: Not that I disagree, but this was all part of the Military Commissions Act which was adopted last fall.

There were only a handful of us that voted against it at the time.  And I've written legislation to overturn it.  I'll offer no better witness here than John McCain, who said that during those terrible years he was incarcerated and tortured, he would say anything to those interrogators in order to stop the physical pain.  So we need to reinforce the idea here; this is a dreadful way to collect information.

We need to do other things to make sure it happens.  But walking away from international conventions, as we did with the Geneva Conventions to disallow the restrictions on torture, I think, is a mistake, and also to walk away from habeas corpus.

But leadership requires you try and do something about it.  And I'm doing something about it by trying to get the Congress to overturn that legislation...

Russert: Governor Richardson, this is an exception to offer a pardon to someone or to do a presidential finding because it's someone who knows a bomb is going off...

Richardson: No.  I will do everything I can to fight terrorists. That's the main obligation of the American people.  But that doesn't mean we become like terrorists and abridge our own freedoms.  What the Bush administration has been using is called waterboarding.  That is unacceptable not just with the Geneva Conventions, but in the spirit of our nation being a nation that respects human rights.  That's not us.  I would not permit it.

And, furthermore, I would not permit -- and here's another issue that I would like the Senate to take back -- the president of the United States has today unequaled authority to eavesdrop on American citizens, without a court order.  The Congress needs to go back and rescind that.

Russert: Time.

Richardson: That is another abridgement that needs to stop.

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