Oct. 9 Republican debate transcript

Matthews: Let's go to Governor Romney. Your difference with Mayor Giuliani on tax cutting?

Romney: Well, we both agree with the need to cut taxes and have fought to do so. And I did so in my state too. We both believe in cutting back on spending as well.

But if you want to cut taxes, you're going to have to cut spending. And the best tool that a governor has and the best tool the president has had is a line-item veto. And Mayor Giuliani took the line-item that the president had all the way to the Supreme Court and took it away from the president of the United States. I think that was a mistake.

He also fought to keep the commuter tax, which was a very substantial tax, a(n) almost $400 tax on commuters coming into New York.

And when it's all said and done, if you're a New York taxpayer, city taxpayer, your state and city tax combined could reach as high as 10 percent, and in our state, if you're a Boston worker, it's going to be more like 5.3 percent.

So we both have worked real hard to get the taxes down, to get the spending down, but I'm in favor of the line-item veto. I exercised it 844 times. Thank heavens we had a line-item veto, and I would like to see it at the federal government level as well. We need it.

Matthews: Mayor Giuliani, respond.

Giuliani: I mean the difference is that under Governor Romney, spending went up in Massachusetts per capita by 8 percent; under me, spending went down by 7 percent. The line-item veto is unconstitutional. I took Bill Clinton to the Supreme Court and beat Bill Clinton. It's unconstitutional. What the heck can you do about that if you're a strict constructionist?

And finally, the point is that you've got to control taxes, but I did it, he didn't. I controlled taxes --

Romney: (Laughs.) I'm sorry.

Giuliani: -- I brought taxes down by 17 percent. Under him, taxes went up 11 percent per capita. I led, he lagged.

Matthews: Sir, a rebuttal here, final rebuttal.

Romney: It's a nice line, but it's bologna. Mayor, you got to check your facts. No taxes -- I did not increase taxes in Massachusetts; I lowered taxes, number one.

Number two, the Club for Growth looked at our respective spending record. They said my spending grew 2.2 percent a year; yours grew 2.8 percent a year.

But look, we're both guys that are in favor of keeping spending down and keep taxes down. We're not far apart on that. The place we differ is on the line-item veto.

I'm in favor of the line-item veto. I had it, used it 844 times. I want to see Libby Dole's line-item veto put in place, the president's proposal to have it put in place. I'm in favor of the line-item veto. I'd have never gone to the Supreme Court and said it's unconstitutional.

Matthews: Do you believe it is?

Romney: I do not believe the line-item veto is -- properly structured is -- the president just last year introduced a line-item veto that is -- that passes constitutional muster. Elizabeth Dole did the same thing. I'm in favor of the line-item veto to make sure that the president is able to help cut out pork and waste. Washington is finally going to have to have a reduction in spending. Republicans got spending out of control.

Matthews: John Harwood.

Giuliani: You got to -- I mean, you have to be honest with people and you can't fool all of the people all of the time. The line-item veto is unconstitutional. You don't get to believe about it. The Supreme Court has ruled on it. So you can bang your head up against a stone wall all you want. I am in favor of a line-item veto, except you have to do it legally. And as the mayor of New York, if I had let President Clinton take $250 million away from the people of my city illegally and unconstitutionally, I wouldn't have been much of a mayor.

Romney: That's -- (inaudible.)

Giuliani: So I took --

Romney: That's what it was about.

Giuliani: So I took President Clinton to court, and I beat him. And I don't think it's a bad idea to have a Republican presidential candidate who actually has beat President Clinton at something. (Laughter.) (Applause.)

Matthews: (Inaudible.) Okay, we got to go to John Harwood. Thank you. John.

Thompson: (Off mike.)

John Harwood: As good as that fight is, I've got a question for Senator Thompson.

Thompson: (Off mike) -- Massachusetts and New York are low- tax, low-spending states. (Laughter.)

(Remarks off-mike.)