A conversation with Bill Clinton

On the N.H. Democratic debate
OLBERMANN:  While this has been going on, did you get a chance to watch the Democratic debate last night?

CLINTON:  I missed the first 15 minutes.  I had to go to a party for all these people.  But I saw the rest.  And I thought it was interesting.  I felt bad for them because they’ve done a lot of these debates and everybody is being told beforehand, you know, here is what you have to accomplish, here is what you have to accomplish.  This one started great, 9 o'clock, and then it went on for two hours.

So maybe because I have been there before, most viewers won’t think this, but a lot of them had to be tired after a long day’s work and it required a lot concentration and you could see, I could see at least, the ebb and flow of energy in all the participants.

OLBERMANN:  And one of the participants had a moment last night, had a moment that I think was fairly generally assessed as being a signal moment in this campaign.  When pressed about whether or not she was in agreement with a theory, a theoretical that you had addressed on “Meet the Press” a year ago, there was an apparent disagreement between Senator Clinton and you on this point.  To which she said, well, he is not standing here right now.  What did you think of that?

CLINTON:  I loved it.  I thought to myself, you know, Tim Russert is a very clever interviewer, he thought that he had trapped her, and instead she made the obvious point that if she is elected, she will be the president, I won’t, she will make the final call, and I completely agree with her about the policy.  The United States has to be against terror.

As a matter of fact, what I really was talking about with Tim Russert is what happens when you have people watch “24,” as you know.  Jack Bauer always knows the nuclear weapon is going to explode in five minutes and here is a guy who knows what you do.

There is a one in a million chance that happens.  But the United States is against torture because it’s illegal, it’s immoral, it doesn’t work and it makes our own soldiers vulnerable to torture.

If that ever happened, the point I was trying to make to Russert, and you or I or anybody else thought a million lives for you beating up this guy, you’d probably do it, but you should know it’s against the law and you should be prepared to take the consequences.

And we shouldn’t ever ask the president of the United States of America to be on the side of torture, illegal, almost always ineffective and makes our own people vulnerable to the same sort of treatment.

On the Iraq War and the Gen. Petraeus ad controversy
OLBERMANN:  May I ask you two other topical questions?

Do you think we’re being consumed a year in front of the presidential election with phony issues?  We have a spasm over an advertisement pertaining to Iraq but we don’t talk about Iraq, or the administration doesn’t talk about Iraq, and we don’t talk about race but we talk about whether a commentator’s racial remarks were taken out of context or he is being smeared?

Where’s the old ’80s ad for — the burger company goes, “Where’s the beef?”

CLINTON:  Well, I think that in our primary I think there has been a lot of substance.  We have at least three very serious plans on health care.  We have at least four or five very serious, well-thought-out plans for how to disengage in Iraq and what we should do and what our obligations are even among those of us who thought it was a mistake to go in.

Hillary has given a very thoughtful education program. So, I think, has Senator Edwards.  So there has been a lot of beef.  I think, frankly, with a campaign that goes on this long, you’re bound to have some distractions, and the daily news is bound to dominate from time to time. And to be fair, people in your business can only go through their health care plans or education plans so many times.

I think the important thing is to keep doing these debates.  I know some people may get bored with them, but I think that the debates have been by and large quite positive experiences that people can try to talk about their differences so in the end they have to answer the substantive questions.

And I think all these candidates should keep laying out their plans for the future so that the American people can make judgments about their person experience and about their policy positions.

But you’re going to have some of this stuff.  I didn’t like that debate about the ad because I thought — I admire Gen. Petraeus, and I disagreed with it.  I would never attack him personally.  I hate all the personal attacks in politics.  I oppose them.  I haven’t engaged in them.

But I thought the absolute snit the Republicans went into was bait-and-switch.  They said, oh good, I can take — I can shift the heat to the Democrats.  I can shift the heat to MoveOn and I don’t have to talk about what really matters, which is, do we really think it’s worth hundreds of more deaths and thousands of more wounded to sustain this many more months?  What are the consequences if we don’t?  What are our options besides the stay-the-course plan outlined by General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker, and leaving tomorrow?

It is not like there are just two options here.  There are, you know, 50 different things you could do.  So I think that those people who called the bait-and-switch what it was were right. 

For example, I was proud of Sen. Boxer, because she introduced the resolution which exposed what happened.  She said, OK, let’s condemn what they did to Max Cleland, who left half of his body in Vietnam and was put in an ad with Saddam Hussein and John Walker Lindh. 

Let’s condemn the Swiftboat action.  And the guy that paid for that was appointed to an embassy by President Bush.  Let’s condemn what they did to John McCain in South Carolina in 2000.  He had a pretty good record of sacrifice for this country. 

So I think that is what we need to do.  We need to, every time there is a bait-and-switch and we are taking our eye off the ball, we ought to call it for just what it is and put it behind us.

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