MR. RUSSERT: And he calls for an “enduring relationship” with Iraq that would keep American forces there “beyond my presidency.” What now? With us, decorated Vietnam veteran, 2004 Democratic presidential nominee Senator John Kerry; and decorated Vietnam veteran, 2008 Republican presidential candidate Senator John McCain. Kerry and McCain square off. A debate: Should we leave or should we stay?

Then, the very latest on the 2008 race for the White House. Insights and analysis from Chris Cillizza of washingtonpost.com; and Chuck Todd, political director of NBC News.

But first, the debate over the war in Iraq. Front and center across the country in our nation’s capital yesterday as anti-war protesters and counterdemonstrations were held. The debate is also front and center this morning right here on MEET THE PRESS. We’re joined by two men who have seen war, who feel they should be president, and who have very strong but different views on the way forward in Iraq. With us, Democrat John Kerry, Republican John McCain.

Welcome both.

SEN. JOHN McCAIN, (R-AZ): Good morning.

MR. RUSSERT: Let me start with you, Senator McCain. What should be the U.S. strategy in Iraq for the next year?

SEN. McCAIN: The U.S. strategy in Iraq should be to defeat al-Qaeda, to do everything we can to reverse the increasing influence of Iran in Iraq, and to achieve or move towards the goal of military security and a functioning government.

MR. RUSSERT: General Petraeus was in Washington, and he testified and he agreed that in order to do that we will lose, on the average, two U.S. men or women per day...

SEN. McCAIN: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: ...15 will be wounded or injured per day...

SEN. McCAIN: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: ...at a cost of $300 million per day. Is it worth it?

SEN. McCAIN: Well, General Petraeus’ answer was pretty much the same as mine. All of us are saddened and frustrated by the course of this war. It was very badly mismanaged by the former secretary of defense and this administration. I, late in 2003, said this strategy is doomed to failure, that we had to fix it, that we had to adopt the strategy that we’ve now adopted. And it is now succeeding. Are we heartbroken at the loss and sacrifice of these brave young Americans? Of course. But the point is that now that we are succeeding with this strategy—and that’s the opinion of most observers—and abandon it and go—either go back to the previous failed strategy, which some Democrats want to do, or set a date for pullout and indicate that we’re leaving the neighborhood, then there’s no doubt in my mind of the consequences. And that’ll be genocide, chaos in the region and far worse than the situation we have today, which I believe can succeed if given sufficient time.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Kerry, your response.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA): Well, the Bush-McCain strategy of escalating our troops in the middle of a civil war has no relationship directly to what you need to do to resolve the civil war. So you can put additional troops in and secure a small area here or there, but everybody knows there are not enough troops to be able to secure all of the areas you need to secure and, most importantly, it does absolutely nothing to resolve the fundamental differences, Tim. A policy of putting more troops in and staying is a policy for staying. It is not a policy for winning or for changing the equation. And the fact is that over the last four and a half years, they’ve had ample opportunity to make any of the fundamental political decisions that really don’t relate to security. An oil revenue law does not take security to be passed. A de-Baathification law does not take security to be passed. It takes political will. They haven’t shown the political will. We have to change the fundamental equation and create leverage in our relationship.

Second major point, this is making us weaker in the war on terror. It is emboldening Iran, empowering Iran, empowering Hamas, empowering Hezbollah. The United States has lost leverage in the region. We need a better policy, and there is a better one.

MR. RUSSERT: Which is?

SEN. KERRY: The better policy is to re-establish that leverage, is to make it clear to the Iraqis that we are leaving over a period of time.

MR. RUSSERT: How long?

SEN. KERRY: That we’re transit—over a year. That is what all of us have said. Fifty-two votes, a majority of the United States Senate, has voted to do that. And Republicans are, are, are obstructing our ability to be able to change the policy of the war. The fact is that we have no leverage. If the president says a year from now we’re going to have 130,000 troops there and we’re going to go back to where we were almost a year ago when the country almost fell apart, that is not putting pressure on the Iraqis.

MR. RUSSERT: A phased withdrawal over the course of the next year?

SEN. McCAIN: It depends on the situation on the ground. In all due respect to the comments that John just made, he would think that we have pursued the same strategy for the last four years or so. The fact is we have changed that strategy, albeit way too late; and in Anbar province, parts of Baghdad, the Kurdish areas, there are areas of secure environment. There is significant political progress on the ground in the local environment. I am convinced that the Maliki government, if they are told we are leaving, they have to stay in the neighborhood, and they will adjust to conditions in the neighborhood. That’s dealing—making deals with al-Qaeda and others.

This consequences of a set date for a withdrawal, in the view of many who opposed us going into the war in the first place—General Scowcroft, General Zinni, others—would be—including a piece by Dr. Kissinger in this morning’s Washington Post—all agree that setting a date for withdrawal would cause us to have severe national security problems in the future. General Jim Jones’ commission testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee last week that if we set a date for withdrawal, it will have severe national security implications not only in Iraq but the region.

Look at the region. What do, what do the Saudis do when they feel they have to help the Sunni? What happens when the Iranians gain further and further leverage in the region? What happens as far away as Afghanistan and Pakistan? The Syrians, who are now exporting suicide bombers into Iraq, the lethal explosives that’re coming in from Iran—all of that will accelerate, and we will be—have cause, unfortunately, to return. And I understand, again, the frustration that people feel. But to somehow assert that we’ve been pursuing exactly the same tactic is simply not in keeping with what we have been doing on the ground. And I’m proud of General Petraeus’ leadership, and I’m appalled by the attacks that’ve been made on him.

SEN. KERRY: Tim, let me, let me answer that, if I may, because it’s a very important distinction that’s got to be drawn here. John keeps using the word “withdrawal,” that, that, you know, a, a fixed date withdrawal is somehow going to abandon Iraq. We’re not talking about abandoning Iraq. We’re talking about changing the mission and adjusting the mission so that the bulkier combat troops are withdrawn, ultimately, within a year, but that you are continuing to provide the basic backstop support necessary to finish the training, so they stand up on their own, and you are continuing to chase al-Qaeda.

Now, I think John and others have a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship of al-Qaeda to Iraq. Number one, it wasn’t there. I thought one of the starkest things that General Petraeus said, “Did this have anything to do with al-Qaeda? Was al-Qaeda in Iraq before we attacked?” “No, it wasn’t,” he said. There was no al-Qaeda there. So we are in Iraq today on false pretenses, in the middle of a civil war, expending our troops while Iraqi politicians use us as cover for their own games. And the only way you will change that is to change this equation. When the president says to them, “We’ll stay as long as it takes,” they can make the decision to take as long as they want to make any decision necessary. You wouldn’t negotiate the sale of your home the way we’re negotiating in Iraq. There’s no leverage. We’ve said we’re there. You have to create uncertainty. You have to create leverage. And the only way to do that is to say to them, “This mission is transitioning. You have to take responsibility for this security over the course of the next year, and we’re going to take a different position.”

Now, there’s one other ingredient to that, and it’s been missing. You have to surge the diplomacy here, not the troops. There is such a stunning absence of real diplomacy in this effort. Where’s Condi Rice? Where is the effort of this administration to be engaged in a standing summit and conference, where you go into a room and the president gives the instructions, “You don’t leave here until you know one of three things: They’re either willing to have pluralism and settle these differences and do the passing of these laws, or they’re going to live in some kind of a semi-partitioned, you know, form where Sunni can’t go kill Shia and Shia can’t kill Sunni, or it’s impossible.” A president ought to be demanding those answers. And I believe that, you know, what we’re doing today—no young American ought to give their life or be grievously wounded so Iraqi politicians can delay making fundamental decisions that they haven’t made over four and a half years, and their constituencies won’t let them make them.

SEN. McCAIN: You know what John is advocating is to go back to the failed tactic of before. And whether al-Qaeda was there before or not, al-Qaeda is there now. Al-Qaeda is there now. Who blew up the mosque in Samarra? Who just went in the northern part of Iraq and killed 500 innocent impoverished people? Who is it that continues to set off most of these suicide bombs to try to increase the sectarian violence between Sunni and Shia? It’s al-Qaeda. It’s al-Qaeda in Iraq.

MR. RUSSERT: Is the problem...

SEN. McCAIN: Now, now—let me...

SEN. KERRY: But, John, you’re just ignoring what I said.

SEN. McCAIN: ...could I just finish—could I just finish what I’m saying please, and then be—and General Petraeus has said, and I take his word for it, Iraq is now the central front in the war against al-Qaeda. Now, John and his friends don’t believe that. I believe the compelling evidence on the ground indicates that clearly, and to, and to say we’re going to have a date for withdrawal in, in, in complete ignorance of the facts on the ground, in my view, is a recipe for failure and disaster.

SEN. KERRY: Let me, let me speak to that also. I read and listened to the testimony of John McCain questioning General Petraeus. And John McCain...

CONTINUED

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