‘Meet the Press’ transcript for Sept. 9, 2007

MR. RUSSERT:  But Anbar’s province seems to be secure because the Sunnis have aligned themselves with the U.S. against al-Qaeda.

SEN. BIDEN:  That’s true.  That relates to dealing with al-Qaeda, but not with the real problem, the civil war.  Look, I, I went to this big conference and tell you what I saw.  I went to this big conference in Ramadi, middle of Anbar province, with the central government figures, two vice presidents, Sunni and Shia, and the deputy prime minister.  Met with the tribal leaders, big, the big, big deal.  Our helicopters couldn’t take off because of a, because of a sandstorm.  They didn’t dare try to drive us from Ramadi in.  We could not go outside the city.  The idea there’s any security—when I left from the Green Zone to get the airport, which is about nine miles, couldn’t take a helicopter.  We went 90 to 100 miles an hour in an evasive pattern along what they call Irish Way.  The idea there’s any greater security there? And their definition of security, they say they’re down from 1600 sectarian attacks to 950.  That’s success?

MR. RUSSERT:  Let me show you what you said in Iowa last week.  “If we do not change course in Iraq soon, you’re going to see, two years from now, helicopters hovering over our embassy in the Green Zone in Baghdad with people hanging” onto “the ladders just like Vietnam.  Mark my words.”

SEN. BIDEN:  Absolutely, positively, unequivocally, I believe that.  Look, let me tell you, Tim, there is no possibility—no possibility—of a central government governing Iraq in any near term.  What I did see, the only place that anything has worked, is when you’ve had local control, local police in local neighborhoods, local security, the ability of the local population to have control over the fabric of their daily lives giving them breathing room so they can, in fact, have a central government that has two functions.  One, deal with the borders.  Two, distribute revenue.  Other than that, if you don’t move to a decentralized federal system, there is no possibility, in my view, of success.

MR. RUSSERT:  General Petraeus said in a letter to his troops that we have not had the political reconciliation we thought we would have at this time. It’s been much slower, but there is some hope.  And then he added this:  “My sense is that we have achieved tactical momentum and wrested the initiative from our enemies in a number areas of Iraq.  We are, in short, a long way from the goal line, but we do have the ball and we are driving down the field.” Is that what you expect him to say tomorrow?

SEN. BIDEN:  I expect him to say that.  And I really respect him.  And I think he’s dead flat wrong.  The fact of the matter is that there is—that this idea of these security gains we’ve made have had no impact on the underlying sectarian dynamic.  None.  None whatsoever.  And when I met in—I’ll tell you what I saw.  I met with the two vice presidents—one Shia, one Sunni.  Both agreed that the only way this is going to work is to give more local control.  The only way it’s going to happen.  The only way there’s any possibility of dealing with the sectarian violence is you’ve got to separate the parties, give them some breathing room, give them local control. If you don’t do that, Tim, you think we’re going to get there in any way with this present government?  And can anybody envision a central government made up of Sunni, Shia and Kurds that’s going to gain the trust and respect of 27 million Iraqis?  It’s not going to happen.

MR. RUSSERT:  This hearing tomorrow with General Petraeus is very highly charged politically.  Moveon.org, a liberal Democratic group, is taking an ad in The New York Times, and this is what it’s going to be:  “General Petraeus or General Betray Us?  Cooking the Books for the White House.” What’s your reaction to that?

SEN. BIDEN:  I don’t buy into that.  This is an honorable guy.  He’s telling the truth.  I have his letter here like you just quoted from.  He acknowledges—look, by its own measure, the surge has failed.  What was the reason for the surge?  To provide breathing room.  For what purpose?  To allow the sectarian warring factions to work out a political compromise.  He acknowledges that’s not there.  He’s telling the truth.  There’ve been some tactical gains, but they have no ultimate bearing, at this point, on the prospect of there being a political settlement in Iraq that would allow American troops to come home without leaving chaos behind.  So I, I just—I think that’s pretty hard-edged.  He’s an honorable guy.  I disagree with what his recommendation is likely to be, but I don’t think he is cooking the books. He’s stating the part that he believes is true.  There’s been some limited tactical success, but quite frankly, it’s irrelevant to this central problem. The central problem is a sectarian war.  If every jihadist in Iraq was killed tomorrow, we’d still have a major civil war killing thousands—wounding thousands of Americans and killing hundreds of Americans just since the surge began.

MR. RUSSERT:  Your presidential campaign is on the air with a political ad about Iraq.  Let’s watch it for a second.

(Videotape)

NARRATOR:  (From Biden political ad) In a world this dangerous, with a crisis as tough as Iraq, hard truths need to be told.  Joe Biden says this war must end now.

(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT:  This war must end now.  In, in ‘05, this is what Joe Biden was saying:  “We can call it quits and withdraw from Iraq.  I think that would be a gigantic mistake.  Or we can set a deadline for pulling out, which I fear will only encourage our enemies to wait us out—equally a mistake.” You’ve changed your mind.

SEN. BIDEN:  Well, I have changed my mind, but I haven’t changed my mind in any fundamental way.  If you go back and look at those other quotes I have at the same time, I say you need a political solution here.  And there’s time, I thought back then, if the administration had been wiser, to generate a political solution allowing us to pull out.  Now the situation we’re in, if the president continues to insist on this strategically-flawed notion of being able to establish a central government that can control Iraq before we leave, I ain’t buying into that.  I am not going to support American forces staying there.  It’s like pushing a rope; that’s never going to happen.  The only way this is going to happen is to do what general—you just heard from the commission.  One, begin to draw down—which was the Biden-Levin language—begin to draw down on our combat troops.  That’s over a year ago. Begin to do that with an end date of getting them all out.  In the meantime, work out a political solution.  We need a diplomatic offensive.  We should be calling an international conference with the major powers to bring Iran, Turkey, Syria and Saudi Arabia in and say, “Here’s the deal.  Here’s the political solution.  Sign onto it.” That’s the only way out.

MR. RUSSERT:  Will you insist on a firm withdrawal date?

SEN. BIDEN:  I will insist on a firm withdrawal—beginning to withdraw the troops, and I will insist on a date, a target date to get American combat forces out, all but those who are necessary to protect our civilians that are remaining there, and all but those who are needed in order to deal with providing for al-Qaeda not being able to reclaim large swaths of territory. And—but look, none of that will matter.  I won’t even support that if we don’t move toward a rational political solution, which is to decentralize the government according to the Iraqi constitution to give this country a chance to stay together.  If you insist on it being a strong central government, it’s not going to happen.  We can’t maintain our troops there.  We shouldn’t.  And this country’s going to split apart.

MR. RUSSERT:  If, in fact, the president does not accept a firm withdrawal date, will you vote to cut off funding?

SEN. BIDEN:  Look, I went to Iraq for two reasons.  One, to see what was going on with these mine-resistant vehicles I’ve been pushing, and we funded in the last vote we had.  I went into Ramadi.  These kids—they’re kids, young soldiers, who were driving these up-armored humvees, gleefully took me over and showed me a new what they call Cougar, these mine-resistant vehicles. They showed me a photograph, Tim.  I wish I’d brought it with me.  And it showed one of these vehicles being exploded with 250 pounds of TNT in a roadside bomb.  It took this vehicle that weighs tons all the way up higher than the telephone pole, knocked down the wires.  Guess what happened?  Every one of those kids survived.  Every one of them inside that vehicle.  They’d all be dead if they were in that mine—in, in that up-armored humvee.  I will vote, as long as there’s a single troop in there that we are taking out or maintaining, either way I will vote for the money necessary to protect them, period.

MR. RUSSERT:  John Edwards, one of your opponents, says, “It’s time for Congress to stand its ground.  If there’s no timetable, there’s no funding.”

SEN. BIDEN:  Look, this my eighth trip to Iraq.  I wish John were with me.  I wish John and the rest of them had got inside that new Cougar and seen the looks on these kids faces and seen how they realized their lives are increased—lifespans increased by 80 percent if we continue to fund building these vehicles which cost billions of dollars to build.  I am not going to fail to protect these kids as long as we have a single, solitary troop in Iraq.

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