‘Meet the Press’ transcript for July 15, 2007

MR. RUSSERT:  But you also identified another problem.  Here’s Lindsey Graham on Tuesday:  “The current political leadership in Iraq is paralyzed.  They’re incapable, in my opinion, of making the hard decisions they need to make.  You need a change in people,” a “change in attitude.”

SEN. WEBB:  Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT:  The director of the CIA is quoted in The Washington Post as saying in November, “The government in Iraq is unable to govern.” If, in fact, the Iraqi government, after four and a half years, is not capable of governing, is paralyzed, why are we asking American men and women to go over there and continue to fight for them?

SEN. GRAHAM:  Because it’s in our national security interest to make sure that al-Qaeda does not have a safe haven.  Lee Hamilton and...

MR. RUSSERT:  But you keep mentioning al-Qaeda.  Let me go back to the director of the CIA.

SEN. GRAHAM:  Yes.

MR. RUSSERT:  This is Michael Hayden, again from The Post.  “Michael Hayden catalogued what he saw as the main sources of violence in this order:  the insurgency, sectarian strife, criminality, general anarchy and, lastly, al-Qaeda.  Though Hayden had listed al-Qaeda as the fifth most pressing threat in Iraq, President Bush regularly listed al-Qaeda as first.”

SEN. GRAHAM:  So did General Petraeus.  General Petraeus says the number one enemy of America is al-Qaeda in Iraq, and Lee Hamilton in December said that our chief national security interest, in a sense, is al-Qaeda in Iraq.

Let me tell you why we have to beat al-Qaeda in Iraq before anything else falls into place.  Number one, they’re an extremist group that have come to this country, Iraq, to destroy this effort at democracy.  And they were able to thrive under the old strategy.  They were able to occupy a territory in Anbar province.  On this show in September last year, everyone said Anbar has—is gone.  What did Petraeus do?  He said, “Give me more troops, and I’m going to get out behind these walls, I’m going to live with the Iraqi army and police forces, and I’m going to try to align myself with people who reject al-Qaeda.” And it is working.  I went to Ramadi on the Fourth of July, the 5^th of July, I could not do that before.  So the surge is al-Qaeda’s worst nightmare.  They have been diminished.  The biggest success of the surge is not that we militarily pushed al-Qaeda out of Anbar, it’s that the people who lived in Anbar have rejected al-Qaeda and aligned themselves with us.

As to the central government, there is political...

SEN. WEBB:  Can I say—respond to this?  You’ve said the same thing three times.

SEN. GRAHAM:  Wait, can I just finish my thought?

MR. RUSSERT:  Yes.

SEN. GRAHAM:  The political reconciliation that has led to Anbar—to al-Qaeda being on the run, local people aligning themselves with coalition forces is producing results.  But the central government in Baghdad is not performing the way we should.  But what I would like to see happen is to allow Petraeus to keep doing what he’s doing, keep the militia and the insurgents and al-Qaeda on the run and push the Maliki government hard.  Retreating and withdrawing and allowing al-Qaeda reform and to kill all the moderates that helped them is not the solution.

MR. RUSSERT:  One last point before I bring in Senator Webb.  Prime Minister Maliki said yesterday that the—if the American forces leave...

SEN. GRAHAM:  Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT:  Quote, “Iraqi forces can sear—secure their country—can secure their country at any time.” He’s basically saying, “You can leave and we’re just fine.”

SEN. GRAHAM:  To be honest with you, I think the—General Petraeus will tell us about that scenario.  And I do believe, in a matter of months, we can turn over most of Anbar.  Because the big thing...

MR. RUSSERT:  No, no, but the prime minister of Iraq is saying that he can secure his country at any time.  If he’s saying that, then why are we there?

SEN. GRAHAM:  Because our national security interests are also involved, and I would like to hear from our generals as to whether or not if we leave now that we’re going to come back with a bigger war.  If Iraq fails, if this...

MR. RUSSERT:  But if Iraq is a sovereign country...

SEN. GRAHAM:  Yes, sir.

MR. RUSSERT:  ...and this is a sovereign-elected prime minister, and he’s saying he can secure his own country, why would—why do we reject that, that notion?

SEN. GRAHAM:  It is my belief that he’s not asking us to leave, he’s making a statement of confidence in his troops.  I would like our general to make a statement in terms of his view of how stable it would be if we left right now, and that comes in September.

MR. RUSSERT:  Senator Webb, do you believe al-Qaeda is the primary enemy in Iraq and threat in Iraq?  And do you believe if U.S. troops, in fact, withdrew from Iraq we would leave behind a bloodbath and genocide?

SEN. WEBB:  I think they’re going to have problems in Iraq whenever we leave. They have had problems in Iraq for 2,000 years.  The question is the circumstances under which we leave, and that’s what we have to work on.  And that’s what the people who’ve basically circled their wagons around this administration, rather than moving toward the future like, like, for instance, Senator Warner and Senator Lugar are trying to do, are missing the boat.  We have to get strong diplomatic efforts in place that are in consonance with what our military has been doing.

Let me just say a couple things about the points that Senator Graham was making.  OK?  First of all, with respect to my amendment, 56 senators voted for my amendment.  Senator Graham put an amendment in basically supporting the status quo, he got 41 votes.  So a majority of the Senate supports what we’re trying to do.  And with respect to the idea that any president, you know, would, would not accept this sort of congressional direction, as I said, we have in the past.  Presidents have in the past.  The best example being when President Truman had to take the recommendation or the requirement of the Congress that you have 120 days in the military before you go overseas.

And with respect to al-Qaeda, quite frankly, al-Qaeda didn’t come to Iraq to try to destroy a democracy.  That’s a very, very flimsy democracy there.  We all recognize that.  Al-Qaeda came to Iraq because the United States was in Iraq, and the people in al-Anbar are not aligning themselves with the United States.  It’s “The enemy of the enemy is my friend.” This hasn’t been the Iraqi military, the national military that’s been taking out al-Qaeda.  It’s been a redneck justice.  It’s been these sectarian groups out there who don’t like al-Qaeda.  And if we leave, they still will not like al-Qaeda.

So what we have to have is the proper sort of diplomatic energy, which is actually what the Iraq Study Group is proposing, along with what these military people have been doing.  And we got to give them a break.  This is where I—this is what I don’t understand, with Senator Graham, Senator Lieberman.  Senator Lieberman attacked me on a show on Monday.  You know, Senator Lieberman, every day, is calling for a war against Iran and probably Syria.  Maybe a, maybe a, maybe they can tell us where the, the line should be drawn.  Maybe, maybe the United States military, all of it, should go to the Middle East and stay all the time.  Somewhere in here there has to be a rational line that protects the well being of our troops.

MR. RUSSERT:  Before we go, what happens in September?

SEN. GRAHAM:  I think General Petraeus will determine what happens in September, but in July, we’re not going to let politicians deploy troops based on the polling of the moment.  And I think the biggest mistake we could make is misunderstanding our enemies.  Iran is killing Americans and trying to destabilize this government.

SEN. WEBB:  So are Saudis, Senator Graham.  So are Saudis, because that’s what the region is.

SEN. GRAHAM:  It’s because they fear a moderate form of government.  Al-Qaeda has come there to destroy moderation.  And if they win—we’ve got a chance to put them on the run, and God bless General Petraeus and these troops.  They’re doing things with this surge we could never do before, and it’s been al-Qaeda’s worst nightmare.  And the worst thing we could do as a country is when we’re close...

SEN. WEBB:  The worst nightmare of al-Qaeda is the Iraqis who’ve stood up to them.

SEN. GRAHAM:  ...when we’re close to getting it right is to withdraw because of the next election.  They didn’t...

MR. RUSSERT:  How long should the...

SEN. WEBB:  Hold on, Lindsey.

MR. RUSSERT:  How long should the surge last?

SEN. GRAHAM:  The surge is set—the—has been in place for two weeks, and we’ve done more in Anbar in last show was September.

SEN. WEBB:  We didn’t do that.  We didn’t do that in two weeks.

SEN. GRAHAM:  It’s been in place for two weeks...

SEN. WEBB:  We didn’t do that in two weeks.

SEN. GRAHAM:  ...and it’s made enormous progress in areas...

MR. RUSSERT:  But how long do you believe the surge will last?

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