‘Meet the Press’ transcript for June 24, 2007

MR. TIM RUSSERT:  Our issues this Sunday:  Immigration, what should happen to the 12 million undocumented immigrants now living in the U.S. ?  How much does our economy rely on their work?  Are we serious about border security?  And what does this issue mean for the Republican and Democratic Parties?  With us, former Republican presidential candidate and author of “State of Emergency:

The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America,” Pat Buchanan.  And the chairman of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Immigration Task Force, Democratic Congressman Luis Gutierrez of Illinois.  Buchanan and Gutierrez square off on immigration.

Then, Bloomberg flirts with the presidency.  Clinton is cheered and booed.  And Giuliani hits some hurdles.  Insights and analysis on the 2008 race for the White House from David Broder of The Washington Post, John Harwood of The Wall Street Journal and CNBC, Gwen Ifill of PBS’ Washington Week, and syndicated columnist Roger Simon.

But first, the immigration reform bill is front and center in Congress, debated all across the country.  Should it be approved?  Pat Buchanan says no;

Congressman Luis Gutierrez says yes.  They’re both with us today.

Good morning, and welcome.

MR. PATRICK BUCHANAN:  Good morning, Tim.

REP. LUIS GUTIERREZ (D-IL):  Good morning.

MR. RUSSERT:  Let me frame the issue for you and our viewers.  This is an outline of the bill, the provisions of the Senate bill, here they are.  Illegal immigration:  “Allow nearly all of the estimated 12 million undocumented immigrants who entered the country before 2007 to apply for a ‘Z visa’ that would permit them to live and work in the country as long as they pay a series of fees and renew their visas every two years.  Applicants must pass a background check, remain employed, and receive a counterfeit-proof biometric card.”

Two, “temporary workers:  Create a temporary-worker program that would grant a two-year work ‘Y visa,’ renewable twice, as long as foreign workers leave the country between each period.  Through a mostly merit-based ‘point’ system based on education, job skills, market needs and English proficiency, immigrants can work toward receiving a visa.  Allow as many” six—“as many as 600,000 foreign laborers a year into the country.”

Lastly, “the border:  Make provisions above contingent on—make provisions above contingent on increased border security by raising the number of border patrol agents from 13,000 to 18,000, building new vehicle barriers, fencing, ground-based radar and camera towers.”

Pat Buchanan, what’s wrong with that?

MR. BUCHANAN:  Well, what we have, Tim, is amnesty, pure and simple.  You’ve got 12 to 20 million illegal aliens in this country, massive criminality being rewarded with blanket amnesty and put on a path to citizenship.  I think that is outrageous in a nation that’s supposed to be built on a rule of law.  The businesses that hired the 12 million get automatic amnesty.  I think you do this and the whole world is watching, I think you will be the—that will be the beginning of a massive invasion of this country by a third world, Tim, that adds a new Mexico, 100 million people every 18 months.  Something like three to—by three to one the number of illegals from nations not Mexico, outside of Mexico, the number coming into the country has tripled since 2003.  The whole world is watching.  If we give this amnesty, I truly believe it is the beginning of the end of the United States as we know it.

MR. RUSSERT:  George W. Bush, hardly a liberal Democrat, has heard arguments from you and others, and this is the way he has responded.  Let’s listen.

(Videotape, May 29, 2007)

PRES. GEORGE W. BUSH:  This bill is not an amnesty bill.  If you want to scare the American people, what you say is, “The bill’s an amnesty bill.” It’s not an amnesty bill.  That’s empty political rhetoric, trying to frighten our fellow citizens.

(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT:  You’re scaring people and you’re frightening people.

MR. BUCHANAN:  Well, that’s preposterous.  Look, if you’ve got 12 million people here illegally and you make them legal in 24 hours, and you got millions of businesses who’d have hired them, and they get amnesty and no prosecution and punishment, that’s amnesty, Tim.  That’s all it is.  The president of the United States, quite frankly, does not have great credibility on this issue because he has failed to enforce the borders of the United States.  The Constitution of the United States obligates the president to defend the states from an invasion.  The president himself says in his first five years, six million people tried to break into this country.  One in 12--500,000--had criminal records.  Five hundred thousand criminals trying to break into our country, Tim, is equal to the entire Army of the United States of America, which is 500,000 people.  This is not immigration, Tim.  This is not Ellis Island.  This is an invasion of this country.  I don’t think the president realizes the magnitude of it, and the fact that he agrees with Teddy Kennedy and Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid tells me this is not a conservative bill.

MR. RUSSERT:  Congressman, is this amnesty?

REP. GUTIERREZ:  It isn’t amnesty.  What it is is a pathway to legalization.  We have an immigration system that is broken, that’s a nightmare.  It’s a nightmare for American citizens.  We saw the specialist missing in Iraq, Jimenez, from Massachusetts.  His wife is being deported.  That’s how broken our system is, that those that are on the front line, defending us in the war against terrorism and in Iraq are having their wives deported from the United States of America.

Look, it’s a broken system, but I think what we say is, “What are you going to do with the 12 million people?” If you listen to Pat this morning, we have had the most aggressive enforcement in the last 30 years in our interior enforcement, 160,000 people deported this past year.  At that rate, it would take us 65 years to rid this nation of all the undocumented workers.  It’s not realistic, it’s not humane.  It isn’t practical to our national security, nor does it secure our economy.  The fact is we create, in the United States, this vibrant economy, 400,000 low skill jobs a year, but there’re only 5,000 visas.  We need new workers to keep our economy vibrant and strong.

The fact of the matter remains is that our economy would almost come to a standstill if not for the work of the millions of undocumented workers that are here.  I say let’s have a humane, a compassionate road.  Many of the arguments that Pat has made here this morning were made in the 1850s against the Irish, the 1910s against the, against Italians.  As a matter of fact, we passed the Chinese Exclusion Act in the 1880s, and 10 years later, we had unprecedented immigration to this country when we opened up Ellis Island.  Immigrants have contributed immensely to the fabric and the structure of our great American society, and they continue to do so today.  The same arguments that Pat makes today are the arguments that have made in the past.  They were wrong then; they’re wrong today.

MR. BUCHANAN:  Let me tell you the differences here.  We’ve got 12, 12 million is the low number of illegal aliens in the United States, Tim.  That is a figure equal to all the Irish, all the English and all the Jewish folks who ever came to the United States from Jamestown to JFK.  We stop, each month, 150,000 people on the border.  That is an equivalent of all the troops we’ve got in Iraq.  The point of this is the, the thing is an invasion, it is illegal, it is huge.

Now, the congressman makes a good point.  You can’t deport 12 million people.

We don’t want to set up a Gestapo and try to do that.  Where do you begin?

You begin by enforcing the border, prosecuting businesses hiring illegals.  And you go after, in deportation, the 600,000 who’ve been ordered deported who are now criminal felons who have stayed in this country.  Many of them are child molesters, they’re drunk drivers, they’re rapists, they’re robbers.  They’ve got a variety of crimes, but they commit a felony by being here.  Start with them, go to the gang members who don’t belong in the country, continue with them.  Go after the folks who getting out of prison.  These are the ones Chertoff should be after.

Meanwhile, you get rid of the magnets that draw them here.  There are two main magnets.  One is corporations that are corrupt and hire illegal aliens and don’t hire American workers.  And the second is social welfare benefits, which are very generous in this country, and people come for them.  Get rid of the magnets, secure the border, enforce the law, you don’t need this bill.

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