MTP Transcript for Mar. 18, 2007

FMR. REP. ANDREWS: What is--let's ask them first, OK? Because listen, they're the ones that have the most at stake. They're the ones that have the most at stake.

FMR. REP. DeLAY: I'm more interested in the American people.

FMR. REP. ANDREWS: They're the ones that live day after day with these attacks that would--that we're all talking about. Seventy-eight percent of the Iraqi people believe that the presence of U.S. forces in Iraq make things more violent, not less violent. Eighty percent of the Iraqi people believe that we should be setting...

MR. PERLE: That poll...

FMR. REP. DeLAY: Is that your poll?

FMR. REP. ANDREWS: That we--hold on, hold on--that we should be setting a date certain, as well as 60 percent of Americans believe that we should set a date certain for Americans troops to leave. Sixty-two percent of Iraqis, Tim, 62 percent...

FMR. REP. DeLAY: Is this a poll from Win Without War?

MR. PERLE: There--there...

FMR. REP. ANDREWS: ...feel so strongly about this, they support attacks on American troops. What Joe was saying, I think, is extremely important. And what most reasonable observers of the situation agree, there is no military solution to the problem in Iraq. It's only a political one. And the reason that the Iraq--the bipartisan Iraq Study Group was so opposed to the surge that is now going on that the-- President Bush has now instigated is because, according to them, it would take away the very conditions that're necessary to forge that political reconciliation that is going to be necessary for a resolution to this crisis. Because the Maliki government that is now filled with and supported by and propped up by some of the most vicious militias that exist in Iraq that are attacking our own troops, they are getting supported by our, our military. And as long as that happens, as we've seen over the past several months, the Maliki government is going to be unwilling and has demonstrated its continuing unwillingness to make the compromises, to make the tough decisions necessary in order to find a political accommodation.

FMR. REP. DeLAY: Well, Tom, then what? We're not in the Senate.

FMR. REP. ANDREWS: The Iraq Study Group has made it clear.

MR. RUSSERT: Let Mr. Perle--let Mr. Perle speak.

FMR. REP. ANDREWS: Unless you have, unless you have those political conditions, it--this thing cannot be won militarily. And they're right.

MR. PERLE: It seems to me, you, you can't describe the Maliki government as you've just described it and then turn around and say things are going to get better if we leave. And I, I don't accept for a moment that we are supporting the militias. We're not supporting the militias. It's tough to get the militias under control, there's no doubt about that, but we are certainly not supporting them. And I don't understand the idea of citing polling statistics when there is an elected government in Iraq. Let me remind you, people voted, risking their lives to vote. There is a government there and if they ask us to leave, I have no doubt that we will leave. They've not asked us to leave because they don't agree with those polls.

REP. SESTAK: But Tom--Richard...

MR. PERLE: And I'm not sure the polls are valid in the first place.

REP. SESTAK: But, Richard, that's the challenge here. There's a culture of dependency by the Iraqis. That's why they haven't asked the government for us to leave. Their troops, it's not a matter of their training. We've trained all 325,000 of them, of which half of them never show up for work. The problem is their allegiance and their motivation. That's a political issue, Richard. This...

FMR. REP. DeLAY: That's not a culture--that's not a culture of dependency, that's a culture of a lack of security. The point is is that they are not capable of providing the security for their own people. We have to do that. You cannot have a democracy, you cannot have an exit strategy until you have security in the region.

REP. SESTAK: Yes, but, Tom, at what cost?

FMR. REP. DeLAY: That's not dependence.

REP. SESTAK: There's a wonderful saying in the Middle East, "Inshallah," God willing, tomorrow. Tomorrow, for our own security, Tom, is no longer good enough. We--there's only one leverage left that they recognize that, as the president has said, there is not an open-ended commitment from us. A date certain then gives the leverage, the catalyst, for them to understand they must step up to the plate, don't have a culture of dependency. We will remain in the region on bases we do have already in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, and that we will then bring our forces home to where not one combat unit at home is ready to deploy today to another contingency. Tom, you're right it's about security, ultimately, our security, that we can be better and bring about a better security for the United States throughout this world.

FMR. REP. DeLAY: But surrender does not bring security.

MR. PERLE: You must be...

REP. SESTAK: Tom, it's a different strategy.

FMR. REP. DeLAY: No, it's surrender.

REP. SESTAK: That brings about a more--no. Tom, we've learned so much in the military that...

FMR. REP. DeLAY: "This is hard, so I want to surrender."

REP. SESTAK: Absolutely not.

FMR. REP. DeLAY: That's exactly what it is.

REP. SESTAK: You never just keep banging your head against the wall, we learn in the military. Is there a better way to go about it? And that's what this bill does is it takes the last leverage we have to make it happen.

MR. PERLE: You must be the first admiral in history to argue that announcing to the enemy that we're going to pull out is going to lead you to victory.

REP. SESTAK: But, Richard, the enemy here are civilians, citizens that are in the country fighting among themselves.

MR. PERLE: No. The enemy--the enemy...

FMR. REP. ANDREWS: This is a civil war.

MR. PERLE: The enemy...

REP. SESTAK: This is a civil war.

MR. PERLE: The enemy are people who are placing roadside bombs, suicide bombers who are recruited often from outside Iraq because they're very much a part of the war on terror, very much a part of the terrorist threat that we face. The enemy is identifiable, and what you're saying is that we should pull out. Setting a date certain only anticipates the pulling out, but it will unleash forces that will be completely uncontrollable. And the consequences of an American pullout will not only be a defeat for the United States and a setback in our effort to combat terror around the world, it will be a catastrophe for the people of Iraq.

REP. SESTAK: Obviously...

FMR. REP. ANDREWS: This is the fatal flaw--this is the fatal flaw to what we've just heard, is this argument from Mr. Perle. The enemy is not identifiable. The Madhi army, the Badr brigade, these very violent militia forces are embedding themselves into the police units, into the army units that we are training. We are saying...

MR. PERLE: But...

FMR. REP. ANDREWS: We are saying that our kids, and this is--the consequence of, of this is is the fact that we have our kids, our young people in these units, working with these units, who are, by night, these, these people who are kidnapping, who are torturing and who are murdering people by the thousands. And these are Shia, primarily, in these units. And, at night, they are going and attacking and murdering Sunnis. We have now been engaged in, and now we're identified as combatants in a civil war. And we don't know--and more importantly, our kids don't know--our kids don't know...

FMR. REP. DeLAY: I know. I know. I know, Tom.

FMR. REP. ANDREWS: ...when they're in these--in these garrisons...

FMR. REP. DeLAY: Who's identifying them? You?

FMR. REP. ANDREWS: ...and when they're out there on the streets of Baghdad, whether the people that they're next to are, are the--are the enemy or their--or their allies. And that's the very point. They're losing their lives as a result.

REP. SESTAK: Richard, I think, and this is an important point...

FMR. REP. DeLAY: But...

MR. RUSSERT: One at a time. One at a time.

REP. SESTAK: Iraq is a set piece within an overall global environment of security that we desire. Just to reach back for one moment, even George Washington at the Battle of Brandywine understood, after this initial clash, that he had to redeploy and go elsewhere in order to assume the strategic victory. That's what this is about. Is there a better way to handle Iraq...

FMR. REP. DeLAY: OK, but tell me, where are you going to deploy to?

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