MTP Transcript for Dec. 24

MR. MEACHAM: That, as St. Paul said, “We see through a glass darkly.” That wonderful moment in Job when God says out of the whirlwind, “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the world?” I’ve always wanted to stick in “buddy,” you know. We’re taught that we all may, all may be revealed, but it sure ain’t now, as, as we say where I come from. So we should understand that we’re called to do good, we’re called to live our lives, but we don’t have a monopoly on truth. And so we have to watch the proselytization that, that can be a byproduct of the wonderful work Rick is talking about.

And the other’s a sense of history. The wonderful thing—arguably the central thing about the American experiment that we should celebrate today and everyday is that we recognize the excesses of the old world and of our own colonial experience in the name of religion. What Sam was writing about, we saw, understood. Washington said, “The government of the United States shall give to bigotry no sanction, to persecution, no assistance.” Madison and Jefferson were ferocious advocates of religious liberty out of personal experience. Madison as a young man is said to have heard the cries of Baptist ministers being tortured by the Anglican establishment in Virginia. Jefferson was furious in the notes on the state of Virginia that Quakers were denied the rights of custody for children in—under an established church in Virginia.  They understood their history, so they wanted to do everything they could to make the world better as they moved forward. And they did that not by banning religion, not by denouncing it, but by trying to manage it and marshal it.  And I think that’s what we’re called to do.

DR. WARREN: Well, but let me say this to you. You’re exactly right. Sam is overlooking the 20^th century. Because the truth of the 20^th century is more people were killed in the 20^th century by atheist governments than all Christian ideas throughout history combined. When you look at the godless communism, and, and Nazism—which in itself was, was we’re the ruler—tens and tens of millions, maybe a hundred million people were killed in the 20^th century by atheists, not by believers. So yes, you can go back to the Crusades, and they were wrong. They were flat out wrong. But let’s take the most recent history. Atheists were what caused the most people—Stalin was an atheist, Mao was an atheist, Hitler was an atheist. He was an occultist, actually. And, and so let’s just make sure that history is told.

MR. RUSSERT: Let me turn back to domestic concerns here, because it is quite interesting watching you and your wife Kay involved in the AIDS movement.  Strong evangelical Christians who nonetheless—this is what your wife, Kay Warren, said: “There are consequences that can happen when you’re sinful, but it’s not a sin to be sick.”

DR. WARREN: Right.

MR. RUSSERT: Embracing those with AIDS, even though she has strong feelings about homosexuality, you created quite a controversy last month when you invited not only Republican Senator Sam Brownback of Kansas to your church, but Barack Obama, the senator from Illinois who’s thinking of running for president, as a Democrat. This is the Christian News Wire, when Phyllis Schlafly and some other Christian leaders wrote to you, saying this: “We oppose Rick Warren’s decision to ignore Senator Obama’s clear, pro-death stance and invite him to Saddleback Church. If Senator Obama cannot defend the most helpless citizens in our country,” speaking about abortion, “he has nothing to say to the AIDS crisis. You cannot fight one evil while justifying another. The evangelical church can provide no genuine help for those who suffer from AIDS if those involved do not first have their ethic of life firmly rooted in the Word of God.”

I want to bring you to what happened at your church. Sam Brownback first said something—Barack Obama was there—you did not rescind his invitation—and responded. Let’s watch.

(Videotape, World AIDS Day):

SEN. SAM BROWNBACK: Welcome to my house.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA: This is my house, too. This is God’s house. So I just, I just wanted to, I just wanted to be clear. I hope, I hope you don’t mind that modest correction.

(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT: A liberal and a conservative, both saying God’s house is my house.

DR. WARREN: Yeah. I called it the face of compassionate conservatism and the face of compassionate liberalism. And what they had in common, was compassion, which is the Jesus part. For pro-lifers to attack me is ludicrous. If you’ve read “Purpose Driven Life,” chapter two and chapter 22 specifically says that God had a purpose for your life before you were born, and that abortion actually short-circuit’s God’s purpose for your life. So there are accidental parents, but there are no accidental children. You may not have planned your kid, but God did. So everybody knows where I stand on that.

But there—it goes back to the stability issue that I deeply believe is missing in our world. And that is, you don’t have to agree with everything a person believes in order to work with them. And we need leaders who work for the common good, not a single-issue people. I feel deeply about pro-life, very deeply about it. I’m a staunch pro-lifer. But I will work with anyone on anything if we can work together. If you can only work with people you agree with on everything, you’ve ruled out the entire world. Because nobody agrees with you on everything. I can’t even get my wife to agree with me on everything.

So, for instance, Francis Schaeffer talked about the difference between being an ally and a co-belligerent. For instance, I’m a co-belligerent with the feminist movement on a number of issues. When feminist movement say, “We’re opposed to pornography because it objectifies women,” I’m saying, “I’m in your camp on that.” Now, I don’t agree with most of the feminist agenda, but I happen to agree with that, so I’m a co-belligerent with them on that. I don’t agree with everything my gay friends agree with, and they don’t agree with everything I, I believe in, but if they want to work on AIDS, we’ll work with them. We’ll work with anybody. That’s this civility of, to quote that great theologian Rodney King, “Can’t we just get along?” And have—look at what’s the common good.

And I really think in the next election, people are looking for that kind of leader, and both Sam and Barack are men of civility.

MR. RUSSERT: It is interesting, Jon Meacham, in 2004, those voters who said they went to church services at least once a week, more than once a week, excuse me, voted for George Bush over John Kerry 64 to 35. Those who never went to church voted for Kerry 62 to 36. There is a divide.

MR. MEACHAM: Right.

MR. RUSSERT: And yet you see Barack Obama going to Pastor Warren’s church.

Hillary Clinton has just hired a religious, spiritual adviser for her campaign.

MR. MEACHAM: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: Democrats recognizing that you have to at least demonstrate to religious people in the country that you have a basic understanding that faith is part of, or central to, many peoples’ lives.

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