MTP Transcript for Dec. 24

MR. TIM RUSSERT: Our issues this Christmas Eve morning: faith in America.  Can religion unite the country for the greater good? And what role will God and values play in the 2008 presidential election? With us, the pastor of one of America’s largest churches and author of the best-selling hard-cover book in U.S. history, “The Purpose Driven Life,” Dr. Rick Warren; and the editor of Newsweek magazine and author of “American Gospel: God, the Founding Fathers and the Making of a Nation,” Jon Meacham. Then, two MEET THE PRESS holiday traditions, our MEET THE PRESS MINUTE from Christmas Day 51 years ago with poet Robert Frost and a special performance by the U.S. Navy Band Brass Quartet.

But first, we are joined by Pastor Rick Warren and Jon Meacham. Welcome both, Merry Christmas.

DR. RICK WARREN: Thank you, Tim. Merry Christmas to you.

MR. RUSSERT: Jon Meacham, let me start with you. Ninety-five percent of Americans say they believe in God.

MR. JON MEACHAM: Correct.

MR. RUSSERT: A survey done for Baylor University says it’s different views of God, authoritarian God, benevolent God, critical God, distant God, but we are a religious nation.

MR. MEACHAM: Right.

MR. RUSSERT: What is the state of faith and religion in America as you see our country in 2006?

MR. MEACHAM: I think it’s as strong as it’s ever been. We were founded as a religious nation, largely by people seeking both economic opportunity and religious freedom. And in many ways, they saw the two linked all the way back from Jamestown forward. Religion has been an essential element in the American story, for good and for ill. It has supported—offered scriptural justification for slavery, for segregation, for denying women full rights, for justifying the taking away of Native American land. It has also united the country in the causes of abolition and the civil rights movement and the extension of freedoms. It is part of the culture and it’s something that, in many ways, is like economics, is like geography, is like political belief.  It’s something that shapes what people value. It shapes how they act, it shapes what they do in a democracy. And when you have a democracy, you have to take account of all the factors that drive and shape the appetites and ambitions of the people. And any leader who does not take account of, of that component, I think, is not leading us very well nor will he or she lead us very effectively, because you have to understand what it is in a republic that makes up the possibilities for republican, lowercase R, virtue.

MR. RUSSERT: Of all the countries in the world, Pastor Rick, the—America is one of the most religious. Why?

DR. WARREN: Well, Tim, the history of America, as Jon pointed out, is faith-friendly, it’s pragmatic and it’s pluralistic. And all three of these are true. And when Jefferson wrote that famous phrase, “separation of church and state,” he was basically saying, don’t tax me to higher Anglican priests.  That’s all he meant by it. He didn’t mean anything more than let’s separate these two different worlds. Madison once said, “If you have one religion then you’ve got tyranny in a country.” He said, “If you have two religions, you’ve got civil conflict. If you’ve got many religions, you’ve got civil peace.” And I believe that the reason why faith has thrived in America is because we have a free market economy for religion, not just for economies, that may the best idea win. I am totally opposed to theocracy, totally opposed to state church. Look at what it did to Europe. Christianity was killed when the government got involved in Europe.

MR. MEACHAM: There’s a, there’s a distinction between, as Rick says, between church and state and separating religion and politics.

DR. WARREN: Mm-hmm. That’s a good point.

MR. MEACHAM: Church and state, you can do.

DR. WARREN: Yeah.

MR. MEACHAM: Religion and politics, because they’re both about people...

DR. WARREN: And values. Yeah.

MR. MEACHAM: ...and values, you, you, you cannot. And the free market analogy is exactly right. Religion took off in this country the moment we disestablished churches.

DR. WARREN: The other thing that, that I’d point out is, and I think you mentioned earlier we’re going to get into this, in the last eight elections, America tends to vote for born-again presidents, regardless of their political persuasion. You can go all the way back to Carter, OK? Reagan, Bush one, who didn’t talk about it much, but was a devout believer, Clinton and Bush two.  Regardless of whether they are Democrat or Republican, right-wing, left-wing, they—America tends to like leaders who have a faith.

MR. RUSSERT: Jon Meacham, in “American Gospel,” you write this and ask this question: “Can religion be a force for unity, not division, in the nation and in the world? The Founders thought so, and so must we.” Is there a place in this country for an atheist who is, who’s troubled by what he sees as too much religion in our politics?

MR. MEACHAM: Absolutely. That’s—there’s a theological case for religious freedom, to make this quickly, I am a believer, not a very good one, but I try.

DR. WARREN: I’m working on him.

MR. MEACHAM: The, the key thing, I think, is that if God himself did not compel obedience, then no man should try.

DR. WARREN: Yeah, that’s right.

MR. MEACHAM: And faith coerced is not faith, it’s tyranny.

DR. WARREN: Good point. Yeah.

MR. MEACHAM: It’s tyranny. And so Madison, Jefferson, Washington, all of the key founders, Franklin, were committed to the idea that you had to have this as a choice, and if you didn’t have the ability to choose not to believe, then it wasn’t a choice. I think there’s certainly room for atheists in the public square, as we call it, obviously, there is, best-selling books are written about it, it’s a moment of great ferment in that part of the world, that intellectual part of the world. And I think part of it’s a reaction to a—an alleged sense that religion has too much influence.

DR. WARREN: Right.

MR. RUSSERT: I want to take you back to June of 1944 to give you a sense of how much religion, faith, played in our politics on D-Day. Here’s the president of the United States saying very openly a prayer. Let’s listen.

(Audiotape, June 6, 1944):

PRES. FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT: And so, in this poignant hour, I ask you to join with me in prayer: Almighty God: Our sons, pride of our nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity. ...  With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. ...

Thy will be done, Almighty God. Amen.

(End audiotape)

MR. RUSSERT: Franklin Delano Roosevelt, “the unholy forces of our enemy,” “Thy will be done.” That’s extraordinary.

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