Rep. John Murtha defends his ethics

Chris Matthews Host of 'Hardball' • Profile

In his first interview since reportedly calling a Democratic bill on lobbying and ethics "total crap," Rep. John Murtha told "Hardball" host Chris Matthews he meant it was "crap" to deal with ethics problems when there are more serious issues facing the nation such as the war in Iraq.

"It is total crap that we have to deal with an issue like this when we’ve got a war going on and we got all these other issues," Murtha said.

Matthews also asked Murtha about leadership in the House and withdrawal from Iraq.

You can read the full transcript of their conversation below.

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC ANCHOR:  Now that they’re in power, what can Democrats do about Iraq?  Can they push for a timetable to leave?  Can they cut off funding for the war?  Who will be their leading voice in the fight?  Will it be Nancy Pelosi’s rival Steny Hoyer or her friend Jack Murtha?  We begin with the man who wants to be majority leader, Pennsylvania Congressman Jack Murtha.  Thank you Mr. Murtha for coming here and nowhere else.

So let’s get to questions that everybody wants answered.  First of all, it’s a secret ballot tomorrow, right?

REP. JOHN MURTHA (D), PENNSYLVANIA:  Right.

MATTHEWS:  Are you going to win?

MURTHA:  We’re going to win, we’ve got the votes.

MATTHEWS:  You’ve got them?

MURTHA:  We’ve got the votes.

MATTHEWS:  Eyeball to eyeball, you’ve got them?

MURTHA:  Eyeball to eyeball.

MATTHEWS:  OK, let’s go.  What’s the difference here, for the average person watching right now.  Whether you win, as you say you will, or Steny Hoyer wins for the race for majority leader in the House?

MURTHA:  Well the difference is the policy question about the war.  When I spoke out two weeks later, he said “It would be chaos if we left.  If we reduced our presence in Iraq, it would be chaotic.”  And he went on to criticize that policy, never signed onto my resolution.  So there was a vast difference between what he did and what I said.  I appeared 143 times on these national shows talking about Iraq, about the lack of progress and the need to redeploy our troops. 

And then finally the White House has invited me down to talk to them about my recommendations about what needs to be done.  So I think I’d be the strongest voice of what I consider the most important, single issue during the election campaign.

MATTHEWS:  A lot of Democrats are sitting around on their hands saying, let’s wait for Jim Baker and his bipartisan commission and Lee Hamilton to tell us what to do.  What do you think of that approach?

MURTHA:  Well, I think we have to go forward.  I think the public is demanding some action on this issue.  I don’t think they’ll accept anything less, and I’m hopeful that the—I talked to Baker-Hamilton Commission, but whatever they say, they have to find a way to give a timetable to redeploy our troops.  And we have to do it fairly soon, because the public wants something to happen. 

I see these troops every week, Chris.  I go to the hospitals.  I get an opportunity to talk to them.  I see them in hospitals all over the world, and the mission is completed for the military.  We can’t win this militarily.  We’ve got to redeploy our troops to the periphery and we have to force the issue with the president.

MATTHEWS:  Well, what about General Abizaid today, the top guy at CENTCOM, coming on the Senate committee today, the Armed Services Committee, and saying I don’t want any timetables?

MURTHA:  Chris, they keep saying this over and over again.  They keep saying that we’ve made progress.  We haven’t made progress.  As a matter of fact, oil production, electricity production, all those things are below pre-war level.  Every measure -- 60 percent unemployment.  Violence has gone up, not down.  We have 130,000 troops on the ground and it’s gotten worse during the last six months.

MATTHEWS:  OK.  Jack Murtha, imagine, for a second, you’re President Murtha.  How would you get our troops out and how fast could you do it?

MURTHA:  I would tell the Iraqis you’ve got to take over.  This is your government.  You’ve got 300,000 troops trained.  You have to work this out yourselves.  Give them the incentive to get our troops out of—they’re the targets.

MATTHEWS:  OK, how fast can we get our troops out safely?

MURTHA:  You could start right away.  It’s a matter of planning to make sure of their safety and the troops.  I said it might...

MATTHEWS:  Right, strategic withdrawals, as you know as a fighting man—you were a combat veteran...

MURTHA:  Yes.

MATTHEWS:  ... is the hardest thing in the world to pull off, because you’ve got to protect your rear the whole time you’re getting out.  As you get weaker and weaker as you redeploy, you’ve got to make sure the last guys out aren’t attacked.  Is that a threat?

MURTHA:  That’s always a threat, but it’s much worse just to leave the troops there and the mission to be—deteriorate and the military to deteriorate, our strategic reserve deteriorate, and the whole world, the credibility of this country deteriorate.  That’s the thing that’s happened.

MATTHEWS:  OK, let me ask you the big question.  We had a Civil War in ‘61, 1861.  If a foreign power had come in and said we can stop this Civil War, they probably couldn’t have done it.  It would have just delayed it.  Is that the situation Iraq is in?  If we—it doesn’t matter when we leave, whenever we leave, they’re going to have their war?

MURTHA:  Yes, my great-grandfather fought in that Civil War, and you’re absolutely right.  It didn’t make any difference what anybody else said, whether it was France or Great Britain.  Whichever side they took, they couldn’t have stopped the Civil War.  That Civil War is going to come about because we need to settle this ourselves.  This is exactly the situation in Iraq.

Same thing with the British when they left India.  They had not a civil war, but they had a lot of chaos.  The same thing is going to happen.  It won’t be any worse than it is now.  I think it may be more stable.  I think the first step to stability in Iraq is to start the redeployment and work diplomatically with the countries around her to solve this problem.

MATTHEWS:  The president after the election, Wednesday, moved quickly.  The president, he quickly said he had taken a “thumpin’.”  I like the way he handled it.  He said, look, we lost, they won, let’s talk.  He invites you—he invites Steny Hoyer down to the White House with Nancy Pelosi.  Were they trying to set up Steny, your opponent, for this leadership post by bringing him down with her, or is that just protocol?

MURTHA:  No, I think that’s just protocol.  I think the fact that I’ve been the one out front on this issue, I’ve been the one talking about it, I’ve been the one that knows the military, my background on the Defense Subcommittee, my background in the military, all those things make me the person to be able to challenge the White House, challenge the Bush administration.  They will not be able to compromise on something that is unacceptable to the Democrats if I’m in charge.

MATTHEWS:  OK, your tactic is to—as you’re running, what is your big pitch to members as you grab on the floor right now?  You were up in the air.  Guys who—women who haven’t made up their mind, what do you say to them right now?  They’re watching, a lot of them, in their offices right now.  What are you saying that makes you better than Steny as the leader?

MURTHA:  I say I know more about the military, I’ve had more contacts with the military, I’ve talked to the troops more often out in the field, I’ve talked to them in the hospitals.  I know we can’t win this militarily.  I know we have to find a solution that has to be a diplomatic solution.  I know we have to force the White House to acknowledge the fact that they lost this election. 

I spoke on 143 shows last year.  That didn’t mean anything compared to the election results.  The election results showed that they understood something.  They were going to get rid of an incompetent secretary of defense.  But having said that, it doesn’t change policy.  As I said to the national security adviser, look, I appreciate you getting rid of Secretary Rumsfeld, but that does not mean that you change your policy.  We have to see a change in policy in Iraq.

MORE FROM HARDBALL WITH CHRIS MATTHEWS

Hardball with Chris Matthews Section Front

Matthews: Razzle-Dazzle move by McCain Hardblogger: McCain's over-the-top reactions Giuliani on McCain's VP search Matthews: Remembering Tim Russert Matthews: Thinking about Hillary Matthews: Remembering RFK — Forty years later Matthews: Why America is making history tonight Matthews: What will textbooks say about this election? Matthews recalls fond memories of Israel Matthews: Buzzed out Hardball with Chris Matthews Section Front   Add Hardball with Chris Matthews headlines to your news reader: