MTP Transcript for Nov. 12

MR. TIM RUSSERT: Our issues this Sunday: The voters send a loud and clear message to the White House, and give the Democrats control of the House and the Senate for the first time in 12 years. What now for the Republicans? We’ll ask a man who is positioned to seek the GOP nomination for president in 2008: Senator John McCain of Arizona. What now for the Democrats? We’ll ask a man who lost a Democratic primary, but was just re-elected as an independent: Senator Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut.

Then, in our political roundtable, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is leaving. What does this mean for the war in Iraq? Joining us: Maureen Dowd of The New York Times and David Gregory of NBC News.

But first, joining us now, a man who criscrossed the nation on, on behalf of Republican candidates, 346 campaign events, he’s back on MEET THE PRESS.

Senator John McCain, welcome.

SEN. JOHN McCAIN (R-AZ): Thank you. Did a lot of good, didn’t it?

MR. RUSSERT: Landslide McCain. Leading up to Election Day you had been saying, “I will think about the presidency after the midterm elections of 2006.”

SEN. McCAIN: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: They’re over.

SEN. McCAIN: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: Will you run for president in 2008?

SEN. McCAIN: I’m going to sit down with my family over the holidays. I always said I would decide early next year, and I’ll sit down over the holidays with my family and make that decision. Are we doing the things organizationally and legally that need to be done to prepare for it? Yes.

MR. RUSSERT: Will you form an exploratory committee?

SEN. McCAIN: I, I think so. We’re doing—there are certain things legally you have to comply with in order to continue to raise money and set up an organization. I believe we are doing that, but the important thing is, we will not make a final decision until I sit down with my family. But we will be prepared.

MR. RUSSERT: An exploratory committee is the way, the vehicle you need in order to raise money to organize.

SEN. McCAIN: Yes. Yes.

MR. RUSSERT: And so that’ll be done this week?

SEN. McCAIN: I’m not sure if it’s this week or not. I haven’t got that detail, but that’s part of the process.

MR. RUSSERT: When, in May, you were asked, if the Democrats won control of the House and/or the Senate, how would that affect your presidential race, you said, “I think it depends on the message of the American people. Are they sick of us Republicans? Are they sick of all incumbents? You can tell when people go to the ballot booth what their priorities are and what their concerns are, far better than any other way.” What did you hear from the voters on Tuesday?

SEN. McCAIN: That we Republicans have lost our way, that we came to Washington to change government and government changed us. The spending, the ethics, the massive programs such as Medicare prescription drug program, that—our failure to address their priorities as opposed to our own, and there was a—obviously a reaction to it. The Iraq war obviously is very frustrating. I know we’re going to talk more about that, but there’s—very frustrating to the American people. But I would submit, if they were all against the Iraq war that you probably would not have seen my friend Joe Lieberman, who I’m sure will talk about it, re-elected. So they’re frustrated by the war, but I also believe that many of our, our spending, our—the scandals, the ongoing scandals, the large government programs. In, in other words, one of the pillars of the Republican Party is fiscal conservatives. They were alienated by the fact that we let spending lurch out of control.

And I think that that had a very significant effect.

MR. RUSSERT: Let me talk about Iraq. Here’s an article from today’s Newsday. “But on the single biggest issue in the campaign, the war, McCain’s position is out of step with much of the nation. Some analysts believe that it will take the shine off the self-styled maverick who fluttered Democrats’ hearts last time and expose the inner hard-liner come 2008. ‘I think John McCain is going to have a real problem because he’s been a staunch defender of the war. If there was anything clear from this election, it’s that that position is a losing position with the American public,’ said Bruce Cain of the University of California Washington Center.”

And let me show you the exit poll, senator, from this past Tuesday. The war in Iraq, do you approve it, voters, 43 approve, 57 disapprove. Look at independent voters, 35 approve, 65 percent disapprove. You can’t be elected president without those independent voters, and 2-to-1 they’re saying they disapprove of the war.

SEN. McCAIN: Well, first of all, I believe that a lot of Americans trust my judgment on issues such as this because of the experience and background that I have.

Of course they’re frustrated, they have every reason to be frustrated, I am frustrated. The question is, is what’s the solution? And I believe that a withdrawal, or a date for withdrawal, will lead to chaos in the region, and most military experts think the same thing. I believe that there are a lot of things that we can do to salvage this, but they all require the presence of additional troops.

Now, if you want to, to give up on, on Iraq, then fine, and take the consequences. I think there will be chaos in the region. But we need to control the—this insurgency, we need to embed people with the police and the military, we need to clear and hold—and “hold” is the important part—so we can expand areas of security. There’s a lot of things that we can and must do. But if we don’t want to do that, fine, but that is a decision that I think will have profound consequences. I’m not prepared to go to an American family and tell them, “Well, you know, we’ll—you just stay there for a while and we’ll delay this withdrawal and defeat for a year or two,” I’m not prepared to tell them that. I’m prepared to tell them that if we have the will to win, we will do what’s necessary to win. But I’m not interested in seeing a scene of the American Embassy on the, the roof of the American embassy in Saigon multiplied a thousandfold.

MR. RUSSERT: But John McCain is suggesting we get deeper into Iraq, send more troops; the American public is on the side of getting out. Look at this from our exit polls. Send more troops, 18 percent of the American people, 23 percent say maintain current level, 28 say withdraw some, 31 percent say withdraw all. Eighty-two percent have a different position than McCain. How can you go to the country after these elections and say, “Send more troops to Iraq”?

SEN. McCAIN: I can only do what I think is best for these young men and women who are in the military. To do otherwise would be immoral and dishonorable. I believe that we have sacrificed enormously because of mistakes that have been made that were serious, which have been well-chronicled on this program and in many books. You have to make a decision as to whether you’re going to pursue a path that can bring to—about a stable Iraq and freedom and dem—for the people of Iraq, or you’re going to have some kind of, of situation where we either withdraw immediately or delay. And there are some who will say, “Well, we, we can stabilize the situation and withdraw gradually,” I don’t accept that, I think that what’s going to happen is that, as you withdraw, that you will see these—the sectarian violence increase, I think you’ll see involvement by Iran and Syria, and I think you will see a serious situation. I have to do what I think is morally right, and that’s been what has guided me throughout my life, and I do have some experience in some of these issues.

MR. RUSSERT: Bottom line for John McCain is if there’s no consensus to send more troops to Iraq and, “win”...

SEN. McCAIN: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: ...then, rather than delay withdrawal for a year and let others die, bring the troops home.

SEN. McCAIN: I, I think you—it’s—I can’t say that specifically, but I certainly wouldn’t support a proposal that leads to eventual defeat—that I am convinced that would lead to eventual defeat. And, look, if you talk to most military experts, we’re in a critical and crucial time. We’re either going to lose this thing or win this thing within the next several months.

MR. RUSSERT: But, senator, people are going to make a judgment about your judgment.

SEN. McCAIN: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: Less than a year ago, you were saying this, “Overall, I think a year from now,” which would be now, “we will have made a fair amount of progress [in Iraq] if we stay the course.” That’s proven not to be correct.

SEN. McCAIN: That’s proven not to be correct. And I also said three years ago if we don’t have more troops over there, and we don’t do what’s necessary, we are going to be doomed to failure. I gave a speech this—foreign relations—Council on Foreign Relations that said basically that. And I’ve been saying it all along, in every hearing, and I’ve been saying you are going to face this situation we’re facing today if we didn’t have a more robust presence, and a better strategy. And that’s—and I proved to be right in that respect.

MR. RUSSERT: Here’s Prime Minister Maliki. In the past three weeks, he has “rejected the notion of an American ‘timeline’ for action on urgent Iraqi political issues; ordered American commanders to lift checkpoints they had set up around the Shiite district of Sadr City to hunt for a kidnapped American soldier and a fugitive Shiite death squad leader; blamed the Americans for the deteriorating security situation in Iraq; and demanded speeded-up Iraqi control of its own military.” This is the prime minister of Iraq, who is supposed to be our ally, taking positions that are very much, it appears, against American interests.

SEN. McCAIN: The prime minister has to understand that we need to put down Sadr, and we need to take care of the Mahdi Army, and we need to stop the sectarian violence that is on the increase in an unacceptable level. And I think that the best way to assure that is for him to know that we will do what’s necessary to bolster the—train and equip the Iraqi army, etc. If we send the signal that we are leaving, of course he’s going to try to make accommodations with others, because he knows that—what is going to be the inevitable result. So most politicians in that part of the world are interested in survival, so I, I can understand why he took the position that he did, but I certainly disagree with it strongly.

MR. RUSSERT: This is what he said. “Last week, al-Maliki rejected a demand by a visiting administration official that he move to disband Shia militias by year’s end, saying it would be suicidal for him to move against the heavily armed militias.”

SEN. McCAIN: That’s because he doesn’t think he can do it. And that’s because we’re not able to bring them under control. If we do what’s necessary to try to bring them under control—and I would advocate, first, going in the Sunni areas and getting that area under control, so that we can show them that—the Shia—that they don’t need the Mahdi Army in order to protect themselves from Sunni attacks, that that’s probably the best tactical move that we could make. The present situation is unacceptable.

Americans are frustrated, we understand that. And again, I want to tell you, I’m not interested in telling some young person’s loved ones that we’re sending them over there in order to delay what may be an inevitable defeat.

MR. RUSSERT: Who should tell Maliki to get rid of the death squads, the militias? The president?

SEN. McCAIN: The president, and everybody else. But Maliki is going to go where he thinks his interests lie. And the best way to reassure him is to tell him we’re going to do what is necessary. And can I—am I sure that we can succeed that way? Of course I’m not sure we can cede that—can succeed that way. But I have said from the beginning, my first trip over there, that we needed more troops, because we didn’t have it under control—the looting, the—all of the things that have transpired. And we find out now that most military people felt exactly the same way.

So we’re at a decision point. We either set up a plan for withdrawal, or withdraw, or whatever it is that, that is going to prevail. And by the way, I think the Baker Commission is going to recommend a area-wide conference, which is fine with me. But there’s no Rosetta Stone here, there’s no magic formula for success. We’re paying a price for the failure of our policy in the past, and the question, then, before the American people is, are we ready to quit? And I believe the consequences of failure are chaos in the region, which will spread.

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