CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: From Iowa State University in Ames, Iowa, home of the Cyclones, it‘s big 12 country and it‘s homecoming week. I‘m Chris Matthews. It‘s the HARDBALL College Tour. Let‘s give a big Iowa State welcome our special guest, Senator John McCain. Let‘s play HARDBALL!

(APPLAUSE)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN ®, ARIZONA: I was ...

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love you!

MCCAIN: I was—that was a vote for be nice.

MATTHEWS: Well, I asked them, Senator, should I ask you the easy questions or the hard ones, and it was like the Roman Coliseum here. Thumbs down on this guy. So here it comes at their request. Maureen Dowd in today‘s “New York Times” said that you had a chug-a-lug contest, a vodka drinking contest with Hillary Clinton two years ago in Estonia.

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS: Let‘s hear your side of the story.

MCCAIN: What happens in Estonia stays in Estonia.

MATTHEWS: But they said to be tough, so what really happened?

MCCAIN: Nothing. We had dinner there and we went to a restaurant afterwards with Senator Lindsey Graham and Senator Susan Collins, and we had a—and I think Sununu also—and we had a couple of drinks after dinner. That‘s it. I‘m sorry it‘s not more exciting. I‘d love to tell you that I ran up and down the square.

MATTHEWS: Well, what kind did you have, Stoli? What did you have, Stoli? Or what did you have over there?

MCCAIN: I think that it was a couple drinks of vodka, but I did not see—detect the brand. I‘m sorry.

MATTHEWS: Who had more, you or Hillary? I just want the score here.

That‘s all.

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MCCAIN: I honestly don‘t know, but it was very casual. I promise you it‘s been about 50 years since I‘ve been in a drinking contest. I wish it was sooner.

MATTHEWS: OK, who won that one?

MCCAIN: That one I don‘t remember. I must have lost.

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS: Former President Bill Clinton was at Georgetown today and he said that politics has become a contact sport. He said you can‘t complain out being attacked. It‘s like Yao Ming complaining about being fouled in basketball. What‘s your reaction to that?

MCCAIN: I‘m afraid he‘s right, and I don‘t think that American people deserve it, and there‘s lots of young people out here who are going to watch the game where they beat Texas Tech at homecoming tomorrow.

(APPLAUSE)

MCCAIN: How‘s that for pandering?

MATTHEWS: Well ...

MCCAIN: Anyway, I think that I want these young people to seek public office. I want them to serve the country. I think we need good members of Congress, senators, state legislature, and I hope there‘s a president out there. And I want them to be motivated to run.

Many of them come up to me and say, hey, I see these commercials all the time and I hear these personal attacks and disparaging of people‘s character and patriotism, so why should I expose myself and my family to that? You‘ve seen it for eons.

MATTHEWS: Right.

MCCAIN: And I think—I think—I don‘t want to put words in your mouth, but you used to work for a distinguished member of Congress and I think in those days, there was a much more respectful dialogue between politicians, and in campaigns than there is today.

MATTHEWS: Why don‘t politicians like each other today?

MCCAIN: I think that we don‘t see each other as much as we should, for one reason. I think that we are motivated to do whatever is necessary to gain public office, and I‘m afraid that sometimes we look at polling numbers and see that negative attacks move those numbers in our favor or against our opponent.

And so the voters, to some degree, are responsible because they‘ve got to reject these negative attacks and support people who they believe in and ignore a lot of this stuff. And a lot of it‘s very cleverly done, as you know. People become millionaires doing these ads.

MATTHEWS: Let‘s talk substance. North Korea—we‘ve got a new NBC/”Wall Street Journal” poll coming out tonight. It says that a majority of the Americans, 56 or 57 percent, do not believe we should attack North Korea, even if it continues with its development of nuclear weapons. Your reaction?

MCCAIN: My reaction is that I understand the reluctance of Americans to engage in warfare. It‘s the last option. I also think that you‘ve got a very dangerous country, a failed state ruled by a megalomaniac. You‘ve seen this little guy with his platform shoes and his interesting hairdo ...

(LAUGHTER)

MCCAIN: ...that is dangerous. They have sold missiles to other countries, as you know, in order to get money. I am afraid that if they have nuclear weapons, there‘s a risk of them selling them, possibly to a terrorist organization. I think there‘s a lot at stake here, and I think the president has led us well in this crisis by going to the United Nations by seeking and obtaining sanctions against North Korea.

Finally could I say, China holds the trump cards here, Chris. You know that. They control the food and the oil that goes into North Korea. They could collapse their economy in a very short period of time. The Chinese have to understand that they are going to be superpower—actually, they are already, and have to exercise restraint against North Korea. And I‘m sorry for the long answer.

MATTHEWS: But the answer—no, it‘s a long ...

MCCAIN: It‘s a tough issue.

MATTHEWS: It‘s a tough question. It seems to me we went through the Korean War. You were in the Vietnam. The Korean War was brutal. Most Americans said by the time it was over, we‘d settle for the 38^th parallel. Just take a stall, take a—what do you call it—a truce and end it. Do you think the American people would ever support another Korean War?

MCCAIN: I think that if the American people believed that there was an eminent strike on the United States of America or one of our allies—they have missiles, as we know, and they have nuclear weapons, as we know, or they just tested one.

If they match the two up, then I think that they would recognize the threat. But it‘s like any other situation. If the American people are told, and if it is displayed to them clearly, they will respond positively, but they have to be convinced, obviously.

MATTHEWS: Do you think that the North Koreans would send a nuclear missile and a missile at the continental United States?

MCCAIN: I don‘t believe ...

MATTHEWS: Why would they ever do that?

MCCAIN: Why would they ever do what they‘ve been doing? I mean, why would they ever starve tens of thousands of their own people? Why would they sell missiles to people who would escalate tensions, to say the least, in the world? I don‘t know if they would or not, but put yourself in the place of the Japanese.

MATTHEWS: I know, but we‘re not in the place of the Japanese. Why don‘t they do something.

MCCAIN: They are our ally. I‘m not saying that we should take military action against North Korea. I‘m just saying that because of the danger of the situation, that we would have to reserve that option. And, again, I think the president did exactly right by going to the United Nations, convincing the Russians and the Chinese to agree to these sanctions.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about an area where we‘ve all been involved, you especially, in talking about Iraq and how we can win this war or deal with it. You‘ve called, just in the last couple of days, for 100,000 more troops on top of the 140,000 we have as a compliment there.

When I read that on the clips this morning, I went to General Barry McCaffrey, whom you know so well, and he said we‘ve got only a total of 19 brigades that we could actually put into combat right now. We have 17 committed, two of those brigades to Afghanistan, 15 brigades already in Iraq. He says we simply don‘t have the capability to sustain another 100,000 troops in Iraq. You disagree?

MCCAIN: I said we need 100,000 more ...

MATTHEWS: Right.

MCCAIN: ...members of the Marines and the Army. We need additional troops there, but I think we need to expand the Army and the Marine Corps by 100,000 people.

MATTHEWS: More recruitment.

MCCAIN: I didn‘t say we need 100,000 -- more recruitment. And by the way, I‘m sure that people in this audience know the members—many members of the Iowa National Guard. They have served with courage, with bravery, with sacrifice and enormously wonderful performance. But it‘s a heavy strain on the Guard.

MATTHEWS: Would they please stand up? I know we have some here. Would the people of the National Guard of Iowa please just stand up nonofficially here? Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS: Thank you. Thank you for your service.

(APPLAUSE)

MCCAIN: Some of these young people have been to Afghanistan or Iraq two or three times already. We have put an enormous strain on them. They have performed magnificently, but we can‘t keep it up. We‘ve got to expand of the Marines.

MATTHEWS: How many other people, men or women, are thinking of making a military commitment in the next couple of years in this audience? Anyone else? Stand up, please, if you‘re thinking about making a military commitment. Well, you guys are already ROTC, right? And we have the ROTC people here.

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS: Thank you, and thank you for your future service. Let me ask you ...

MCCAIN: Could I respond to that? I think if young Americans, young people in this audience that‘ll have—at Iowa State are told—the ones at Ohio State, too, but at Iowa State are told that we need them for a worthy cause, that we will compensate them well, that we will provide for further educational benefits, that we will offer—that‘s the job of recruiters. That‘s our job to ...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: But why isn‘t it working? I mean, so few people here— we‘ve got a couple of thousand of young people here, and a very, very small percentage have expressed a commitment, even by standing here. Doesn‘t that mean we might have to think of the draft again? MCCAIN: I don‘t think we need to think of the draft again because I don‘t think it makes sense in a whole variety of ways. But I guarantee you, if these young people felt that this nation was in a crisis and we asked them to serve, virtually every one of them would stand up because I have the greatest confidence in the young people of America.

MATTHEWS: But, if you were paid better and you had a greater opportunity for education in the military, would anybody else want to stand up here? See, I‘m wondering, because the military—we talked to John—

McCaffrey says we can‘t do this thing.

MCCAIN: I talk to young people all the time. I talk to them one-on-one, I talk to them in small groups. I don‘t expect a group of people to stand up. But I‘ll tell you, if I have the chance—with the ones I have a chance to talk to, they understand how wonderful this country is and they are willing to give something back to it. And that‘s what America‘s all about.

MATTHEWS: I agree. How many in this room believe in the war in Iraq from beginning to now, support the war in its full reality? The senator is one of those. Who else agrees with him? Stand up.

Stand up, stay up. Everybody now stay up who intends or would consider participating in this war. Participating in the war.

MCCAIN: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: All you people standing up are planning to participate in the war in some way? Really? Everybody here.

MCCAIN: Thank you very much, my friends.

MATTHEWS: Because I asked a minute ago how many were going to join the military. I wonder what your participation would involve.

MCCAIN: Chris, your bias is starting to show.

MATTHEWS: No, I‘m just trying to get an answer now. Wait a minute—

I want the people that are standing up. Somebody yell out why are you standing if you‘re not joining the military.

OK, you were one of those. Keep going, anybody else? Of course, look at all the people in the back. I asked before if anybody was joining the military. And now you‘re standing up in support of the war but not in terms of a plan to actually participate in a war. I don‘t get the connection. Would somebody explain it?

CROWD: (OFF-MIKE)

MATTHEWS: Guys, more?

CROWD: Strategy.

MATTHEWS: Pardon me? Strategy, what was that?

CROWD: (OFF-MIKE)

MATTHEWS: We‘ll be right back with the audience. We‘re going to get more questions and answers from the audience when we come back with Senator John McCain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: We‘re back at Iowa State University with Senator John McCain, our special guest on the HARDBALL College Tour. Now we‘re going to the audience right away. Ms., your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Senator McCain, I‘m curious. How do you feel about the fact that the United States has essentially been the big brother of the entire rest of the world for a good time now, and do you plan to continue this policy?

MCCAIN: I think we‘ve been the big brother in many beneficial ways. Sometimes, not beneficial. But most of the time, we have been a beacon of hope and freedom and liberty to many countries throughout the world. Ask people who used to live behind the Iron Curtain.

I think we have been generous. I think we have never sought someone else‘s country, certainly not in the last century or this one. And I think that with all our faults and failings, most people in the world still look up to us.

Now, in the little straight talk, there is some anti-Americanism around the world. It has to do with Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, the war in Iraq and some other things. But overall, I still would match the United States of America not only against any nation in the world, but any nation that‘s ever existed, and I‘m proud to be an American.

(APPLAUSE)

MATTHEWS: Next question, yes?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator McCain, in terms of North Korea, as you know the U.N. Security Council just passed sanctions on them. If those sanctions don‘t work, what do you see as the next response or response for the United States?

MCCAIN: I think that first of all, your point is correct in that we‘re not sure it‘s going to work because we‘re not sure how forceably the Chinese will act in cutting off some—particularly across the Chinese and North Korean border.

In other words, whether they will enforce the sanctions scrupulously or not is still an open question. If they fail, the first thing I would think is we would get a coalition of Japan, South Korea and ourselves and perhaps other countries in the region to impose some of those sanctions as well.

But as I said in my earlier discussion with Chris, the Chinese are very crucial, and the Chinese have to understand that it‘s not in their interest to see these kinds of tensions and confrontation on the Korean peninsula because they are doing very, very well, as you know, economically and emerging as a superpower.

So I would say the next step would probably try to get some other countries to help us, but it would be very hard to be effective. There are a number of steps that we can take before we would consider a military option in my view, and once we considered a military option, we would have to explain very well to the American people.

MATTHEWS: Next question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator McCain, how do you feel about President Bush‘s use of signing statements to reinterpret and ignore provisions of laws passed by Congress?

MCCAIN: As a member of the legislature, I don‘t like it a damn bit.

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MCCAIN: If the signing statements mean that—and they‘ve been used in the past by other presidents, but not nearly as extensively as this president—that, well, you just object to certain provisions, or you don‘t think some of it is constitutional, that‘s fine. But if you say you‘re not going to abide by those laws, then that‘s a serious erosion of the separation of powers, and it simply cannot be that way. That is in violation of the Constitution of the United States.

And if that happened, I would be one of the first to support going to the United States Supreme Court to make sure that those signing statements were advisory in nature and advisory only.

MATTHEWS: Next question, just a minute. We only have half a second, half a minute.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator McCain, there‘s been a lot of generals calling for Defense Secretary Rumsfeld‘s resignation. How do you feel about that?

MCCAIN: Time for a break?

MATTHEWS: No. We got time, senator.

MATTHEWS: I have said, as long ago as nearly three years ago, when I was asked if I had confidence in Secretary Rumsfeld, I said I did not. I was asked if he should resign. I said no, that‘s up to the president. Elections have consequences, the president picks his team, and the president has the right to stay with that team if he wants to.

MATTHEWS: As Rumsfeld, you—I‘m not quite clear there. You think Bush is OK keeping Rumsfeld, but you would dump him?

MCCAIN: I do not have confidence in him.

MATTHEWS: We‘ll be right back. We‘ll get some more questions from the audience the rest of the hour. We‘ll be right back from Iowa State University. John McCain at Iowa State, home of the Cyclones.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CONTINUED

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