MTP Transcript for Oct. 22

SEN. OBAMA: You know, what I would do is I would take more leadership than we have taken in forming an international protective force in Darfur. I think, you know, when you have situations involving genocide, it is important for us as a world community—and the United States is the world’s sole super power—for us to take that seriously, and to make commitments of resources to deal with it. The problem is, we haven’t prioritized that, partly again because of Iraq. Iraq has consumed all our foreign policy. We have almost no political capital around the world on anything else, and that’s part of the reason why—despite very sincere efforts, I believe, on the part of the administration to do something about Darfur—I think this is an area where, partly because the evangelical community has shown extraordinary and sincere concern, so has the administration—it has not been backed up by any serious diplomatic effort.

MR. RUSSERT: You write in your book this: “I also think my party can be smug, detached, and dogmatic at times. I believe in the free market, competition, and entrepreneurship, and think no small number of government programs don’t work as advertised.” Which programs?

SEN. OBAMA: Well, you know, I think that if you look at how our health care system is structured right now—I’m, I’m a big supporter of Medicaid and Medicare, but I think that there’s no doubt that we could squeeze more efficiencies out of those, those systems there. Simple example, we don’t, we don’t use electronic billing for Medicare and Medicaid providers. Now, the—there’s no other business on earth that still has people filling out paper forms to get reimbursed, especially for a system that large. We could drastically reduce the costs of those systems.

So the—overall, when you look at the federal budget, one of the problems that I’ve discovered, you know, during the time that I’ve been in Washington, is we don’t seem to have any mechanism where we look at the entire budget, and we make priorities. It is a piecemeal, haphazard process. And part of what I’d like to see is some more discipline and structure to how our budget process proceeds, part of the reason why I worked, for example, with Republican Tom Coburn. Recently a bill was signed by the president that we had passed, that would call for all federal spending to be on a searchable Internet database. That’s part of the reason why one of the provisions that I included in a recent appropriations bill called for the end to no big contracts when it came to Katrina reconstruction.

There, there are a number of steps where we could obtain significant savings, and that money could be applied to programs that do work. And one of the things that I’ve always said is, is that if you’re progressive, you have at least as much of a stake, if not more, in efficient government as fiscal conservatives, because money wasted on things that we don’t need is money that we could have put into programs that do help the American people.

MR. RUSSERT: You talk and write a lot about bipartisanship, and I was quite taken by this comment about federal judges. Let me share it with you. “Because federal judges receive lifetime appointments and often serve through the terms of multiple presidents, it behooves a president—and benefits our democracy- -to find moderate nominees who can garner some measure of bipartisan support.” John Roberts, chief justice of the Supreme Court, confirmed 78 to 22. That’s some measure of bipartisan support.

SEN. OBAMA: Right.

MR. RUSSERT: And yet you voted against him.

SEN. OBAMA: Yeah. But I, but I—the—I did not support a filibuster in that situation. So the—I mean, there’s a situation where I thought John Roberts was a highly legitimate nominee. I anguished over that vote. I thought he was highly qualified for the job. I had some concerns about his record on the margins. I chose to vote against him, but I would not have supported a filibuster in that instance, because I think that he was a good nominee on the part of the Bush administration. So the point I’m making there was in the context of judicial nominations, it’s important to distinguish between somebody that you may not vote for because you’re not sure that their views on the Constitution comport with yours. That doesn’t mean that you take extraordinary measures to block their appointment, and that is a good example of it.

MR. RUSSERT: You talk about visiting the White House and how the president was very gracious meeting members of the Congress and made a presentation, and then in the middle of the presentation, this is how you write about it, “The President’s eyes became fixed; his voice took on the agitated, rapid tone of someone neither accustomed to nor welcoming interruption; his easy affability was replaced by an almost messianic certainty.”

SEN. OBAMA: Mm-hmm.

MR. RUSSERT: “Messianic certainty.” Those are strong words.

SEN. OBAMA: Well, you know, I, I think the president is, is a complicated person. As I say in the book, I think he is a decent person, and, and the—I like him personally. I think that the president has come to approach the problems we face in very ideological, absolutist terms, and I think that’s, to a large degree, characterized how the Republicans who’ve been controlling Congress have operated over the last several years. And I think that has been a mistake. I think that the American people are historically a nonideological people. I think when we operate on the basis of common sense and pragmatism, we end up with better outcomes. And I think that part of the reason the Republican Party is going to—has been doing poorly in this election is because people have said, you know, when we look at issues like health care or education or Social Security or foreign policy, it seems as if the president has only one narrow approach and is not taking in the advice and dissenting views that might make for better proposals. And, and that is something that, you know, I think anybody who’s in power for a while can fall victim to; I think this administration has been particularly victimized by that problem.

MR. RUSSERT: But when you say “messianic certainty”...

SEN. OBAMA: Yeah.

MR. RUSSERT: ...you’re suggesting that it’s almost as if he believes God wills it.

SEN. OBAMA: Well, you know, I, I don’t presume to know what is in the president’s heart. I think that one of the president’s strengths from a political perspective is that certainty. I think that the problem has been that that certainty has precluded him from looking at issues based on facts as opposed to based on ideology. And I, you know, I quote in the book one of my favorite stories from the Senate when Daniel Patrick Moynihan of New York is in an argument with a colleague on the floor, and the colleague’s probably not doing too well in that argument, Pat Moynihan was a pretty smart guy, and at some point, the other senator gets frustrated and says, “Well, you know what, Pat? You’re just entitled to your own opinion and I’m entitled to mine.” And, and Moynihan frostily, I—I’m sure, says, “You are entitled to your opinion, but you’re not entitled to your own facts.” And I think this administration has, has not always understood that distinction. And that’s part of the reason why we’ve had problems in Iraq and that’s part of the reason why we’ve had problems with our, with our budget. There’s been an unwillingness to look squarely at the facts in making decisions.

MR. RUSSERT: You did say the president gave you some advice, and this is what you write, “You’ve got a bright future,” said President Bush, “very bright. But I’ve been in this town awhile and, let me tell you, it can be tough. When you get a lot of attention like you’ve been getting, people start gunnin’ for ya. And it won’t necessarily just be coming from my side, you understand. From yours, too. Everybody’ll be waiting for you to slip, know what I mean? So watch yourself.” Good advice?

SEN. OBAMA: Absolutely good advice. I—the—you know, I think that it is important to not buy into your own hype or, or your press clippings. And one of the advantages I have, I think, in that is I’ve got a wife who knocks me down a peg any time I start thinking that what they’re writing about me is true.

MR. RUSSERT: You do write this, and it’s a very interesting observation, “When you watch Clinton vs. Gingrich or Gore vs. Bush or Kerry vs. Bush”—so that’s ‘98, 2000, 2004--“you feel like these are fights that were taking place back in dorm rooms in the sixties. Vietnam, civil rights, the sexual revolution, the role of government - all that stuff has just been playing itself out, and I think people sort of feel like, Okay, let’s not re-litigate the sixties 40 years later.” Are you suggesting that those political players are, are the past and you represent a new generation that won’t get caught or bogged down in those kinds of debates?

SEN. OBAMA: I think, I think the categories we’ve been using were forged in the ‘60s. You know, I think the arguments about big government vs. small government, the arguments about, you know, the sexual revolution, military vs. nonmilitary solutions to problems. I think, in each and every instance, a lot of what we think about is shaped by the ‘60s, and partly, you know, the baby boomers is—are a big demographic. I write about the fact that, whether it’s the market for Viagra or how many cup holders are going to be in, in a car, a lot of it’s determined by what the baby boomers want. Our politics isn’t that different, and my suggestion is that—take the example of big government vs. small government. My instinct is is that the current generation is more interested in smart government. Let’s have enough government to get the job done. If, if we’re looking at problems, if the market solution works, let’s go with the market solution. If a solution requires government intervention, let’s do that. But let’s look at what are the practical outcomes. And I think that kind of politics is what the country’s hungry for right now.

MR. RUSSERT: You told Vogue, Men’s Vogue magazine, that if you wanted to be president, you shouldn’t just think about being president, that you should want to be a great president. So you’ve clearly given this some thought.

SEN. OBAMA: Yes.

MR. RUSSERT: And what would, in your mind, define a great president?

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