The White House's ‘State of Denial’

Mitchell: The president didn't ask at that meeting?

Woodward: He did not. What the president said is, "Kick ass Jay."

Mitchell: Kick ass.

Woodward: Kick ass.

Mitchell: Not, "We can't give you the troops," or, "Should we give you more troops?"  Or, "What do you want me to do about it"?

Woodward: And he asked him about, "Where'd you get that accent?"  And Garner said he was from Florida. And his father was a rancher. And then Bush made some comment at the end about, "Well, if the governor," in other words, his brother, "gives you any trouble, let me know." No substantive interaction about this massive undertaking. I was so surprised at the account, the authoritative account I had, that I, earlier this year, took the notes and gave them to Dan Bartlett.

Mitchell: At the White House.

Woodward: At the White House. Went to his office and said, "This is what I understand happened." And I never heard from Dan Bartlett again.

Mitchell: Do you think that's why they decided to shut down?

Woodward: I think it's one of the reasons, and they said I had a preconception. I had information. I guess they didn't like the information.

Mitchell: You interviewed the president before, and Dick Cheney, but not for this book.

Woodward: That's correct.

Mitchell: Why, do you think?

Woodward: I'm not going to ascribe motives. It's up to them whether they want to talk. I made it clear I would be happy to talk. I made it very clear. Took notes. I had took, you know, hours going over these things with people. And they decided not to deal with it. Now, look, I think that the book shows it's not a pretty picture.

Mitchell: Did Colin Powell resign willingly? Or was he, in effect, fired by Andy Card on behalf of the president?

Woodward: Well, it was very clear in the interchanges between Card and Powell that they wanted his letter of resignation. Now Powell had said he was going to leave. He made it pretty clear. But then there was some ambiguity. And I recount a very sad interchange between Card and Powell about, you know, it's over. The president has decided. And, in fact, Andy Card had to call Powell to get the letter because they were very anxious.  The president was very anxious to nominate Condi Rice.

Mitchell: They needed that vacancy?

Woodward: Well, the president had made a decision. I recount how, right after the election at Camp David, he met with Rice and said, "I want you to be secretary of state." She said, "You need a new national security team." And he said to her, "Don't tell me what I need."

Mitchell: Don't tell me what I need.

Woodward: That's correct.

Mitchell: She was the national security advisor.

Woodward: That's right.

Mitchell: You have a series of documents, classified documents, other documents, indicating a disconnect between public claims about the progress of the war and the insurgency and what was really going on. Do you think that this disparity is a deliberate cover-up? A misleading of the American people? What do you think is going on there?

Woodward: I think it's a reflection of George Bush, as he has said, is a war president. "This is a hard war," as he said. The leader needs to be optimistic and confident. And so when the bad news comes in, on many occasions, which I report in the book -- they say the opposite -- in public. And, you know, I'm a reporter on the sidelines. But I find it always better to tell the truth. And I think a president or any leader is better when he or she is the voice of realism.

Mitchell: Is this a case where they're not telling him the truth, or that he is going along with putting a gloss on things?

Woodward: He knows how bad it is.

Mitchell: And says otherwise.

Woodward: And he's the optimistic, confident leader. You know, I was surprised, quite frankly, at the radical disparity between the bad news and the proclaimed optimism.

Mitchell: You've described him very differently in Bush at War.

Woodward: Well, that was after 9/11. I mean, even John Kerry, in the president debate, said he did a good job after 9/11. And so that's what I described.

Mitchell: Because critics would say that you've seen his polls go down.  He's now more vulnerable. He's an easier target. Now you're writing a book that would be, you know, satisfying his political critics. For now, the majority of the American people are upset about this war.

Woodward: This is what I found. And I can't write a book about events that haven't occurred. And 9/11, I wrote a book about that. General response to what President Bush did about 9/11 was that he was strong and forceful. I talked to him at the time about how he was the voice of realism. The decision to go to war in Iraq, which is the second book — Plan of Attack — that really ends in March 2003. And that is a decision that two thirds of the Congress — you know, Democrats and Republicans, supported. John Kerry and many of the Democrats thought there were weapons of mass destruction.

Mitchell: And things changed.

Woodward: Things changed. And I acknowledge that. I found out things in this reporting, like the July 10, 2001, meeting, which I did not know about until I worked on this book. You know, you always wish you knew the full story, and I certainly don't even come close.

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