Transcript for Sept. 17

MR. TIM RUSSERT: Our issues this Sunday: Only 51 days until the midterm elections. The Democrats must gain six seats to take control of the U.S. Senate. This morning, our Senate Debate series continues with another one of the most closely watched races of the year, Virginia, where incumbent Republican Senator George Allen faces off against Democratic challenger Jim Webb. Allen has served in the U.S. House of Representatives and as governor of the state of Virginia. He was elected to the U.S. Senate in 2000 and is a son of the legendary NFL coach George Allen. Webb attended the U.S. Naval Academy, where he was a varsity boxer, even sparring with fellow classmate Oliver North. As a Marine, his service in Vietnam earned him several medals for valor. He later served as secretary of the Navy. George Allen vs. Jim Webb, only on MEET THE PRESS.

And they are both with us here now.

Mr. Allen, Mr. Webb, welcome both.

MR. JIM WEBB: Thank you.

SEN. GEORGE ALLEN (R-VA): Good morning.

MR. RUSSERT: Let me go back, Mr. Webb, to November of 2000. Here you are, standing with George Allen, endorsing him for the United States Senate, saying this: You endorse George Allen, “Webb said he believes Allen would be a better representative in the Senate on national security issues.” How can you endorse someone and then run against him?

MR. WEBB: I—for two reasons. First of all, I had thought George Allen would be bringing better leadership to the United States Senate, and I have not seen that kind of leadership, particularly in the area of national security, where we have become so vulnerable as a nation. The second is that if you look at what’s happened to the Republican Party over this period, they’re—I’m like a lot of people in this country who affiliated with the Republican Party based on national security issues toward the end of the Vietnam War, were never particularly comfortable with them, particularly on economic issues. And what you’ve seen over the last six years is a war that is an incredible strategic blunder of historic proportions. We’re now getting the—American people are now beginning to understand how bad that decision was. We need to do something about it, and we’re seeing the budget busted, and we’re seeing the divisions in our, our work force based along class lines as never before.

So A, I thought George Allen would be a leader, and B, I think that the Republican Party has reached the point where, in its Karl Rove era, it’s mostly negativity rather than affirmative leadership.

MR. RUSSERT: Did you go see Senator Allen and talk to him about the war in Iraq before it began?

MR. WEBB: Yes, I did. I wrote a piece for The Washington Post six months before we went into Iraq, laying out in my view this was not about WMDs, it was about our troops being turned into terrorist targets, and that there was not an exit strategy because the people in this administration who were doing this did not intend to leave. I went and saw Senator Hagel, I went and saw Senator Allen. I spent an hour with Senator Allen discussing this with him.  And from that point forward I decided that, although I had perhaps a, you know, a political—a personal regard for him on one level, politically that I could not support him anymore.

MR. RUSSERT: According to The Virginian-Pilot, Senator Allen, “[Webb] says he became disillusioned with Allen several years ago when he personally warned the senator of the perils of invading Iraq. ‘The only thing I got out of him was, basically, “You’re asking me to be disloyal to the president.”’” Is that what you said to Mr. Webb?

SEN. ALLEN: President...

MR. RUSSERT: You supported the war as a way of showing loyalty to the president?

SEN. ALLEN: First of all, I’ve, I’ve shown great leadership for the people of Virginia as governor, as United States senator, making this country more safe and also more prosperous. And while my opponent now is upset with tax cuts and upset with energy ideas and education improvements for this country, make sure we are a land of opportunity for all, I’m going to keep fighting for those ideas because they will make our country more prosperous and more safe.

Insofar as leading up to the military action in Iraq: The issues were before us on a resolution, a resolution that stated that Saddam had 17 times defied and violated U.N. resolutions. It wasn’t just the United States, it was Britain and indeed the entire world community. There was good evidence that he had weapons of mass destruction—in particular, chemical and biological weapons. The resolution wanted to get the, the whole world community to enforce that resolution, and ultimately the president, in the event that he felt that it was important for the security of our country, may need to act, and need to act as best as possible in coordination, in concert with other countries.

Now, that action was taken, and I think the world’s better off with Saddam Hussein not in power. Saddam Hussein was one who was paying $35,000 to parents so they’d send their sons or daughter on these murder/suicide missions into Israel.

This has been a tough war, it’s not been easy. I was just with—at a funeral for a young man, Private Wolf. His mother held my hands—this was just on Monday, on 9/11. She wanted to be—have him buried, laid to rest that day.  And she held my hands, and she said, “We can’t quit. We can’t give up.” And so this...

MR. RUSSERT: Well, let’s just stop right there. And let me, let me...

SEN. ALLEN: ...this—so it is tough. But...

MR. RUSSERT: But let me ask you a simple question. If the CIA said in 2003, “Saddam does not have weapons of mass destruction. That is now our—the finding,” would you still have voted to go to war?

SEN. ALLEN: Tim, we, we made decisions. You can’t say, “Gosh,” five years later—and this is what my opponent’s campaign’s about is the second-guessing.

MR. RUSSERT: No, but it’s a serious question. People are saying, knowing what they know today, they still would have gone in. It’s a serious question.  If you knew Saddam did not have weapons of mass destruction, was it still worth going to war?

SEN. ALLEN: I stand by my vote, and the vote was based on the evidence and information before us. And we had a choice. We had a choice whether to listen to the critics and do nothing, and then have this world more dangerous if, if we were right.

MR. WEBB: We were...(unintelligible).

SEN. ALLEN: And if we were wrong, and if we were wrong, and, and deposed Saddam Hussein, the world’s still better off. Now, my opponent—now, you need, need to understand...

MR. WEBB: Define that.

SEN. ALLEN: No, hold it. My opponent...

MR. WEBB: I mean, this is the third time you’ve said “my opponent.” You know. When, when...

SEN. ALLEN: All right. Well, Jim, hold it. Hold it, Jim.

MR. WEBB: ...when, when we went in...

SEN. ALLEN: Let me finish this.

MR. WEBB: ...when we went...

SEN. ALLEN: Jim was opposed not only to the military action now to get rid of—and recently, but he—if it were up to him, Saddam Hussein would not only be in his palaces in Iraq now, he would actually be in Kuwait, because he was opposed to military action back in 1991.

MR. WEBB: That’s an absurd analogy. That’s an absurd analogy.

SEN. ALLEN: Heck, heck, the French were even for military action in 1991.

MR. RUSSERT: All right, just, just one second, Mr. Webb.

MR. WEBB: Yes.

MR. RUSSERT: Before I let Mr. Webb respond, did you say to Jim Webb you were voting for the war so as to not be disloyal to President Bush?

SEN. ALLEN: I was supporting our efforts of our administration. It was bipartisan support for this resolution, because I thought we needed to show unity of resolve so that Saddam Hussein, it was my hope, would see how resolved, how unified the United States was, as well as the United Nations, and would actually comply with the weapons inspections.

MR. RUSSERT: The, the concern being if in fact you cast that vote out of loyalty to President Bush...

SEN. ALLEN: No, it’s loyalty to this country, and making sure that our country is unified in, in this, in this effort to disarm Saddam Hussein. That was the point.

MR. RUSSERT: I’ll give you a chance to respond.

MR. WEBB: First of all, with respect to Gulf War I, I was testifying in the Nunn hearings. I was warning, 16 years ago, that the, that the worse job we did on Iraq, the more powerful Iran would become. And with respect to the French analogy, which he’s used before, my, my Marine son was home, and he said, “Wait a minute, OK, the French did support Gulf War I. Dad, you were—you fought in Vietnam, George Allen didn’t fight in Vietnam. Even the French fought in Vietnam.” I mean, what have the French got to do with any of this?

With respect to going in, in, in this situation, we did have other options.  This was not a war of necessity at the time. We had inspectors on the ground, as opposed to the situation in 1998 when there were no inspectors on the ground. And we had plenty of strong military advice, not just from people like me, people like Tony Zinni, and other strongly—people with strong backgrounds, military backgrounds, who have endorsed my campaign, who were saying the same thing. This was a case, as you—last week Vice President Cheney was on your show, and he even declined to comment about the Senate Intelligence Committee report that showed how this—the intelligence that would be—was being used had been cooked. A lot of people on the outside knew that. There was no urgency to go into this war at the time that we went into it. And if we had the right people in the Senate, there would have been more questions asked and a better policy in place in order to defeat international terrorism. That is the focus of our country. We didn’t go into Iraq because of terrorism, we have terrorists in Iraq because we went in there.

MR. RUSSERT: Let me...

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