Transcript for July 9

Mr. RUSSERT: But, again, it’s the tone and the rhetoric. Let me go back and review some of the things the president has said about Kim Jong Il of North Korea. “I loathe Kim Jong Il. I’ve got a visceral reaction to this guy.” And then in 2004, “There’s a tyrant in North Korea that wants to develop a nuclear weapon.” And then this in 2002. The president called him a “pygmy” and compared him to “a spoiled child at a dinner table.” Does the president still believe that Kim Jong Il is a tyrant, a pygmy and a spoiled child?

MR. BURNS: Kim Jong Il is a—is a despot and he is someone who is one of the worst offenders of human rights all over the world. These missile tests the other day were certainly reckless, they were provocative and so we haven’t changed our opinion of the nature of the regime in North Korea. No one in our government has. We are very clear-eyed about who they are, what they represent, how much they’ve denied their own people the basic human rights that people should have around the world, and we’re focused on this nuclear question as well. So I think there’s been a lot of continuity over American policy both in the substance of the policy and in the way we’ve talked about North Korea over the last several years, and we’re determined to press ahead.

MR. RUSSERT: When the president talked about the “axis of evil,” he said “Iraq, North Korea and Iran.” The United States invaded one of those countries: Iraq. Some now make the case that Iran and North Korea took from that the following lesson: that if you develop a nuclear bomb and have a strong military you will not be invaded by the U.S.

MR. BURNS: And both of those countries have clearly miscalculated their own situations. Now the North Koreans felt, I guess, that by testing these ballistic missiles they would somehow put themselves into a position of greater weight in the negotiations. They’ve miscalculated because you’ve seen very tough statements from the Chinese and the Russians, and the South Koreans and Japanese against what they’ve done and you, and you see momentum building in the U.N. Security Council towards a very tough Chapter 7 resolution against them.

The Iranians have miscalculated. They thought that they could divide the United States from both our European allies and from Russia and China. But we’ve been able to craft a major and united coalition of all those countries. And we’ve essentially given the Iranians a clear choice, and you’ll see a lot of this unfold this week, both in Europe when Secretary Rice meets with her counterparts on Wednesday at the G8 summit in St. Petersburg, at the end of the week when the president is there—the Iranians are going to have to choose: negotiations with us after they suspend their nuclear programs, or further action in the Security Council.

So I don’t think either of these countries is on the offensive. Frankly, I think both of these countries are rather cornered and isolated. There are very few countries defending them, and they’re running out of options. So we think this, this policy of patient diplomacy and of crafting multilateral coalitions to tighten the pressure around them is going to work, and it’s the right way to go, clearly, for the United States. We want to exhaust diplomatic means before we consider other means.

MR. RUSSERT: Based on our experience in Iraq, particularly with our emphasis on the weapons of mass destruction that did not materialize, John Deutch, the former head of the CIA, offered this observation: “The next time military intervention is judged necessary to combat the spread of weapons of mass destruction - for example, in North Korea - there will be skepticism about the quality of our intelligence.” Do you agree with that?

MR. BURNS: I don’t—not in the case of North Korea, not in the case of Iran. Tim, I’ve been to Europe 20 times over the last 14 months to talk to the Europeans and the Russians and Chinese about Iran, for instance. There’s not a single person at the higher levels of those governments who doesn’t believe that Iran is trying to create a nuclear weapons capability. There isn’t a single person in the governments of China or Russia or South Korea or Japan who doesn’t believe that North Korea is bent on building up its nuclear capability. There is no argument in the real world today about what these two countries, Iran and North Korea, are trying to do. There is no argument remotely similar to what we went through in 2002 and ‘03 with our European allies over Iraq. In fact, we are now tightly knit up with these countries. And if you look at what the French and German and British governments are saying—as well as the Russian and Chinese governments—about whether or not these countries are intending to create a nuclear weapons capability, they agree with our assessment. So I don’t agree at all that we’re somehow limited in what we can do and limited in our effectiveness because of the, the disagreements we had over WMD in Iraq.

MR. RUSSERT: Let me conclude with comments by Bill Kristol, the editor of the Weekly Standard. He used to work for Vice President Dan Quayle: “North Korea is firing missiles. Iran is going nuclear. Somalia is controlled by radical Islamists. Iraq isn’t getting better, and Afghanistan is getting worse. ... I give the president a lot of credit for hanging tough on Iraq. But I am worried that it has made them too passive in confronting the other threats.” Has a preoccupation with Iraq allowed North Korea—and Iran—to go forward with their nuclear programs and limited our options?

MR. BURNS: Well, I strongly disagree with that criticism from Bill Kristol.

And I disagree for one reason: We have a very strong and active government. From the Pentagon, the State Department, the White House, Treasury, we are focused on all of these problems. We created, over the last 15 months, a major international coalition to corner the Iranian government and to isolate them, and that’s been a diplomatic success over the last several months.

We’ve now got this six-party talk framework we hope coming back together, and certainly the five countries are united. Secretary Rumsfeld is in Afghanistan this morning and Secretary Rice was there 10 days ago, and we’re giving that government—President Karzai’s government—all the support it can get. We are a government that can operate—and we have to operate—in every part of the world. We’re a global superpower. We have tremendous resources at our disposal, and, frankly, we’ve got a first-class military and a first-class diplomatic effort, and we can certainly take on all these issues and be successful simultaneously.

MR. RUSSERT: And we will be watching. Ambassador Nicholas Burns, we thank you for sharing your views.

MR. BURNS: Thanks, Tim.

MR. RUSSERT: Coming next, the view of three former Clinton administration officials who spent years dealing with the North Korea problem: former Assistant Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter; chief State Department negotiator, now at the Georgetown University, Robert Gallucci; and former U.S. ambassador to the U.N., now governor of New Mexico, Bill Richardson. They are all right here next only on MEET THE PRESS.

(Announcements)

MR. RUSSERT: More on North Korea with three men who’ve dealt firsthand with this situation after the station break.

(Announcements)

MR. RUSSERT: And we are back. Welcome all.

Governor Richardson, should the United States negotiate directly, one-on-one, with North Korea?

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D-NM): Yes, it should. Our policy so far is not working. What you have is North Korea has quadrupled its enriched plutonium since 2002. The six-party talks are going nowhere. We should talk directly to the North Koreans to discuss what is next. They need to dismantle their nuclear weapons. They need to destroy their missile capability. The only way to do that, in my judgment, is face-to-face talks at a level of Christopher Hill. He is a competent diplomat. The successes we’ve had with the North Koreans have been through direct engagement: when I got some pilots out of North Korea, when Bob Gallucci negotiated the agreed framework, Secretary Albright close to having an agreement on reducing or terminating their missiles.

What North Korea is seeing right now is Iran getting a nuclear reactor. They see Iran getting a nuclear fuel cycle that is assured, economic incentives. On the other hand, what they want to see is treated with respect, direct talks with the United States, but also they want to see an effort by the United States to give them the recognition that they feel they deserve. I don’t believe they do. They are a desolate, isolated regime, but right now our policy is not working. It makes sense to talk directly with the North Koreans.

MR. RUSSERT: But wouldn’t the world then say, “Oh, I see. You test the missile on the Fourth of July, you get the U.S. attention and you bring them to the bargaining table”?

GOV. RICHARDSON: Our policy right now has not worked. Look where we are right now. Asia has destabilized. We are trying to outsource our foreign policy to China. I believe China is not necessarily interested in helping us on North Korea. They don’t want to see a bunch of refugees go into their country. I believe that China is a competitor. They control a lot of our debt. Right now we do not have leverage over China. The best effort, in my judgment, is face-to-face talks, hard negotiating, get that agreement that was signed in September that North Korea has not abided to—a timetable for North Korea to dismantle its nuclear weapons. Efforts to set up benchmarks in exchange for that armistice agreement where we don’t attack North Korea, they get economic assistance. But our objective should be firm: to get them to dismantle their nuclear weapons. The best way to do it is face-to-face talks.

MR. RUSSERT: If the president now changes course, won’t the headlines be Bush’s—“Bush blinks”?

GOV. RICHARDSON: No. I believe the headlines would be “Bush deals realistically with North Korea. He reverses a policy that is not working.”

MR. RUSSERT: Ambassador Gallucci, do you agree with, with that?

MORE FROM MEET THE PRESS

Meet the Press Section Front

Dec. 13: Romer, economic roundtable Dec. 6: Clinton, Gates, McCain, roundtable Nov. 29: Rick Warren, Bill & Melinda Gates Nov. 22: Senate roundtable, Brinker, Snyderman Nov. 15: Clinton, Duncan, Gingrich, Sharpton Nov. 8: Casey, Barbour, Rendell, roundtable, Brokaw Nov. 1: Tim Geithner, David Plouffe, roundtable Oct. 25: Cornyn, Schumer, Burnett, Sorkin, roundtable Oct. 18: Jarrett, Dodd, Kyl, Shriver, Podesta Oct. 11: Levin, Graham, McCaffrey, Myers, roundtable Meet the Press Section Front   Add Meet the Press headlines to your news reader: