Transcript for May 28

MR. RUSSERT: What will be the political consequences this fall if a Republican president, a Republican Senate and a Republican House do not come together and find common ground on immigration?

SEN. HAGEL: Well, there will be political consequences. There are political consequences for everything we defer and don’t do. We’re in the mess that we’re in today on this issue is because we’ve deferred this tough issue. My dear friend Jim Sensenbrenner and those who think like Jim on this, they want to continue to defer it. That’s why we have the problem we have. There will be a political consequence for this. That’s not why we do it or should fix it, but, but make no mistake, politics is wrapped around everything. Politics is in the fabric of our very processes, as it should be, because politics is about accountability, it’s about leadership, it’s about courage. This is the test. This is a significant test.

MR. RUSSERT: Bottom line, Congressman Sensenbrenner, will you—will House Republicans accept any path to citizenship for the illegal immigrants now in the U.S.?

REP. SENSENBRENNER: Tim, the words “path to citizenship” is a buzz word for amnesty. We ought to be honest. It is amnesty.

But to respond to Senator Hagel, I was in Congress when the Simpson-Mazzoli bill was passed. I voted against it. We have the problem today not because we deferred the problem, it’s because Congress made a mistake in passing Simpson-Mazzoli. And those who supported it, including former Senator Simpson, said that the Simpson-Mazzoli bill has given us the difficulty that we’re in.

The Senate bill is Simpson-Mazzoli 20 years later. I want to solve the problem. The American people want this problem solved, but this time we’ve got to do it right. And to do it right means to do things in the proper order. The secret is first, secure the border and enforce the employer sanctions law. If we don’t do both of those things, then we will simply get more illegal immigrants coming across the border and taking jobs, because it is always cheaper for an illegal immigrant to be hired than either a citizen or a legal immigrant with a green card and work authorization. The market does work, and no bill that we pass, unless it is done right, will be able to rectify the market so that people who are doing these jobs, including Americans and legal immigrants, will be on the books, will be legal, will be paid and will have their Social Security taxes paid under their own Social Security number and their own name. And that’s what the priorities of the House are.

I can say that earlier this month Zogby released a poll, and they had a fair question where they asked the American public whether they preferred the Senate or the House approach. The House approach was preferred over the Senate approach by a 64- to 30-percent margin by the American public. I think the House is where the American people are; the Senate has gone way off the page.

MR. RUSSERT: Let me ask my question again: Would you accept any legislation which would put illegal immigrants on a path to citizenship or, as you say, amnesty?

REP. SENSENBRENNER: No. Amnesty is wrong, and even Mexican government officials have said that the talk of amnesty is actually increasing the flow of illegal immigrants across the border as we speak. And they have redeployed some of their security forces into the desert on the Mexican side of the border to prevent Mexicans who are trying to come across the border from either starving or being deyhdrated. Amnesty is wrong and we should not pass it.

MR. RUSSERT: Twenty-four percent of the farming industry relies on illegal immigrants; 17 percent of the cleaning industry, 14 percent of the construction industry, 12 percent of the food preparation industry—all illegal immigrants. What happens to those industries if the illegal immigrants are sent home?

REP. SENSENBRENNER: I’m not saying that the illegal immigrants will be sent home, and I think that the end sum game, which I hope Senator Hagel agrees with, is to turn the illegal immigrant work force into a legal work force, whether they’re legal immigrants or whether they’re United States citizens. Because this problem has festered for such a long period of time, that can’t be done with the wave of a wand or the signing of a bill by the president of the United States.

But I get back to the point that unless we do employer sanctions right and do border security right, you’ll simply get more illegal immigrants coming across the border, and those that are here now might not apply for amnesty or whatever else it’s called because they’re afraid that they will price themselves out of the market and lose their jobs.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator:

SEN. HAGEL: Jim Sensenbrenner has just described the Senate bill. He has just described why we should pass the Senate bill. Everything he just said, it is right and it is included in the Senate bill. You talk about polls and the American people and where the American people are on this. Isn’t it interesting that you have four states that are along that 2,000-mile border with Mexico, four states with eight United States senators. Five of those eight senators, bipartisan, supported the Senate bill.

Now, are they so out of touch with their constituents, five out of eight border state senators supported the Senate bill? I don’t think so. I think the American people, as they start to become more aware of what the details are, what the facts are, information, your kinds of programs, Tim, that allow people to understand this, will, as we always do, start to appreciate the fact that you just—you cannot let this continue to drift, that you have to deal with it. And, again, I’m, I’m amused, is the only reaction I can have at Jim and others, they’re continuation on amnesty. I mean, this is just not amnesty. But we’ll let, we’ll let the conference figure this out.

Last point I’d make on this. I don’t speak for the Senate, I don’t speak for any senator. I’ve spoken to a number of Jim’s colleagues—matter of fact, some leadership colleagues over there. Most of the people, the Republicans on the House side that I’ve spoken to, including leadership, including the chairman of the Rules committee who is from California, Congressman David Dreier, want to try to find a resolution to this. So what I’m saying is, this is the best opportunity to do that in a conference, and I think we all want that. I know Jim Sensenbrenner wants it. But to, but to say that something’s a nonstarter before you go in, you can’t do that.

MR. RUSSERT: Would you support legislation, in the final analysis, that did not provide a path for citizenship for the illegal immigrants?

SEN. HAGEL: I think you’ve got to have some system, Tim, to do this. Now, they could change it, they can tune it up, they can amend it, but you again are deferring the problem. And, as Jim Sensenbrenner said, the failure of the 1986 act was because we didn’t deal with that, as well as we didn’t deal with other things. We are now dealing with all those pieces in the Senate bill. Doesn’t mean it’s perfect, doesn’t mean it can’t be improved. That’s why you have the conference.

MR. RUSSERT: Congressman Sensenbrenner, will there be a bill?

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