Transcript for February 5

REP. BOEHNER: No, I think the Ethics Committee process really, in fact, is back up, it's working. They know what the rules are, they interpret the rules. And frankly I don't think I've ever gone on a trip when I didn't ask the Ethics Committee for their advice before I went.

MR. RUSSERT: Well, why not an independent board?

REP. BOEHNER: Congress is charged, the members are charged, House and Senate, with setting up their own rules and enforcing their rules. If you bring more transparency to this relationship between those who lobby us and members, more transparency with what members are doing on trips, I think let the public decide.

MR. RUSSERT: One of the other areas that--people who are watching this would like to reform, the amount of money lobbyists spend at conventions. And they point to the vast number of parties, money spent at both political party conventions. According to your hometown paper, "One of the most famous parties at the Republican Convention simply known as the `Boehner party,' thrown every night until the wee hours. It's in John Boehner's honor, and is organized by lobbyists." Would you eliminate those?

REP. BOEHNER: I would--if I--it were up to me I'd, frankly, think--rethink the whole convention process. You know, back in the old...

MR. RUSSERT: Eliminate lobbyist money.

REP. BOEHNER: Well, now, I don't even know why we have these conventions any more. You know, back in the old days, it was--it was--they were real conventions, they made real decisions. Now they're made-for-TV events and a large number of parties. I go to bed every night at 10:00. These conventions that require me to be up much later than that are very difficult.

MR. RUSSERT: But would you eliminate lobby-sponsoring parties honoring congressmen every night at these political conventions?

REP. BOEHNER: That'd be fine with me. Then I could go to bed on time.

MR. RUSSERT: There was a big episode in your life back in 1995 when there was--Bob Herbert in The New York Times wrote a column about something you did. I want to find out what you learned from it. Here's how Herbert wrote it. "One day last summer, 1995 Representative John Boehner of Ohio, chairman of the House Republican Conference, decided to play Santa Claus. He took it upon himself to begin handing out money from tobacco lobbyists to certain of his colleagues in the House floor. He was not deterred by the fact that the House was in session, and that he was supposed to be attending to the nation's business. He was not constrained by any sense that passing money around the floor of the House of Representatives was a sacrilege."

REP. BOEHNER: It was a big mistake, and I regret it. I shouldn't have done it. It was an old practice that had gone on in the House for a long time, and I do regret it. But I also worked with Speaker Gingrich at the time to change the rules of the House to prohibit the practice. And now if you look, when we pass the new rules in the next Congress, handing out a PAC check on or near the House floor is prohibited.

MR. RUSSERT: You gave $5,000 from your PAC--leadership PAC to Tom DeLay's defense fund.

REP. BOEHNER: I did.

MR. RUSSERT: You think Tom DeLay's innocent?

REP. BOEHNER: I do think he's innocent.

MR. RUSSERT: If he is acquitted and chooses to come back to Washington and wants to become majority leader again, would you step aside?

REP. BOEHNER: I'm sure we'll talk about it. Tom and I have a different approach.

MR. RUSSERT: You would talk about it?

REP. BOEHNER: Well, Tom and I have--have different approaches. But I think what's going on in Texas with Tom DeLay is unfortunate, unfair and highly partisan. And that's why I gave him that money out of my PAC, to help him pay for his tremendous legal costs.

MR. RUSSERT: But if he's acquitted and decided to come back to Washington and reclaim the majority leader position, you would consider...

REP. BOEHNER: Under--he stepped down as majority leader. He vacated his seat. We had an election, and I won. But I like Tom DeLay. He's been a great leader for our party. He's a friend of mine, and we're going to continue to work closely together.

MR. RUSSERT: But would you step aside for him?

REP. BOEHNER: I said we would talk about it.

MR. RUSSERT: I want to talk about Jack Abramoff, because his name, lobbyist, "The Shadow," hangs over Congress. According again to the Cincinnati Enquirer, "John Boehner's Freedom Project PAC got $27,500 from the Chippewa tribe, Choctaw Indians and other tribes in California, Louisiana" that Jack Abramoff represented.

Mitch McConnell, the majority leader of the Senate, also Republican, had received some $18,000 from clients of Jack Abramoff. He gave the money back because he was concerned about the perception. Will you give the money back?

REP. BOEHNER: No. Those tribes gave money to my political action committee. It had nothing to do with Jack Abramoff. I didn't know Jack Abramoff. I may have met him once. I had no relationship to him, and the money that I raised from those tribes had nothing to do with him. I worked with those Indian tribes and others on education issues, on labor issues, and he had nothing to do with it, so why would I--why would I give the money back?

MR. RUSSERT: But had you ever received a nickel from those tribes before they were represented by Jack Abramoff?

REP. BOEHNER: I have no idea.

MR. RUSSERT: The answer's no.

REP. BOEHNER: I--well, no. Other people represented those tribes as well. Understand, Jack Abramoff, knowing that I...

MR. RUSSERT: But they didn't give you--they didn't give you money until they were represented by Abramoff.

REP. BOEHNER: No. I became chairman of the Educational Workforce Committee in 2001, where I began to work closely with them on their issues. I had nothing--Jack Abramoff didn't like me. I didn't do earmarks, the things that he exploited for his own political and financial gain.

MR. RUSSERT: According to his records, however, there were 17 contacts between his lobbying team and your staff and--and a meeting with you also.

REP. BOEHNER: Some of his under--underlings worked with some low-level employees in my office. I'm telling you, I never met the man. The money didn't come through him. And, frankly, I think four out of the five tribes have written us a letter at our request saying that the money they gave had nothing to do with Jack Abramoff.

MR. RUSSERT: You mentioned Newt Gingrich, the former speaker. This is what Newt Gingrich has said. He "cautioned Republicans that they risk losing control of Congress majorities--congressional majorities if they try to put all the blame on lobbyists. `You can't have a corrupt lobbyist unless you have corrupt member of Congress or a corrupt staff. This was a team effort,' Gingrich said. `If Republicans intend to retain a majority, then they need to take the lead in saying to the country we need to clean this mess up. But any effort to push this under the rug, to say this is just one bad apple: That's baloney.'"

REP. BOEHNER: That's correct. What we need to do, and I agree with Newt's approach here. Because it all starts with the member and the staff. And what we need to do is to make sure our members understand what the rules are, understand what's ethical behavior. Because if we don't begin the process ourselves, we'll never restore the trust between the American people and their Congress.

MR. RUSSERT: So you don't want to eliminate private funded trips. You do not want to have an independent office of public integrity. What do you want other than immediate disclosure?

REP. BOEHNER: Tim, all of the violations that we've read about and the corruption we've read about, were people who violated the laws of the United States of America and/or the rules of the House. All of--all of this. And so, as we begin to look at how do we best clean this up and how do we begin the process of restoring trust, I think sunlight is the best disinfectant. If there's more disclosure of travel before you go, more disclosure of the relationship between lobbyists and members and their staff, let the American people take a look at this, let them watch it and let them judge what we're doing, I think that will reduce the amount of corruption and graft that goes on.

MR. RUSSERT: Majority Leader John Boehner, we thank you very much for joining us and sharing your views.

REP. BOEHNER: Thank you.

MR. RUSSERT: Coming next, domestic eavesdropping, terrorist surveillance, whatever the name, is it legal? Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania holds hearings starting tomorrow. But this morning, he's right here on MEET THE PRESS.

(Announcements)

MR. RUSSERT: Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter holds hearings tomorrow on domestic surveillance. He's here this morning after this station break.

(Announcements)

MR. RUSSERT: And we are back.

Senator Arlen Specter, good morning. Welcome. Tomorrow you...

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER, (R-PA): Good morning, Tim.

MR. RUSSERT: Tomorrow you have your hearings on domestic eavesdropping.

SEN. SPECTER: Right.

MR. RUSSERT: What is the one most important question you will ask?

SEN. SPECTER: Why the administration did not go to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and tell them about the program. They have a great record for not leaking. They're experts in the field. The program could've been presented there, still could be. And I think that's the biggest question the administration has to answer.

MR. RUSSERT: The administration says that they didn't need to, that they already had authority from Congress when, back in October 2002, Congress voted an authorization to go to war against Iraq, and this is part of that war.

SEN. SPECTER: I believe that contention is very strained and unrealistic. The authorization for the use of force doesn't say anything about electronic surveillance, issue was never raised with the Congress. And there is a specific statute on the books, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which says flatly that you can't undertake that kind of surveillance without a court order.

MR. RUSSERT: The White House also says that they didn't go to Congress because people in Congress told them that they would compromise this surveillance plan if they requested permission to conduct it.

SEN. SPECTER: Well, the administration also has said, Attorney General Gonzalez has been questioned, reported, and I asked this in a letter I sent to him, saying that if the administration went to Congress, they were likely to be denied the authority. So, it's very hard in that kind of a context to claim that Congress intended to give the authority if the administration thought that Congress would turn it down.

Now, on the issue as to whether the program would be compromised, you don't know that until the administration goes to the Intelligence Committees, or the chairmen and the ranking, and lays the program on the line with sufficient detail so that there can be some Congressional oversight. And I think up until this time, Tim, that's never been done.

MR. RUSSERT: The President has said that there have been at least 12 briefings of senior members of Congress.

SEN. SPECTER: Well, the statute requires that the committee be informed. And the committee constitutes 15 members. And they have the so-called "gang of eight": the chairman and ranking member of the Intelligence Committees of each House, and the majority leader and the Democratic leader in each House. That really is not--is not what the statute requires. And if the administration thinks that's too broad because the Congress leaks, and regrettably that's a fact of life, we ought to change the law. They've never asked us to do that. And I think we would do that if they could have a showing that a more restrictive approach is warranted.

MR. RUSSERT: As you well know, this program began shortly after September 11, 2001. The President, when he ran for re-election in 2004 was up in the great city of Buffalo, New York, on April 20. And this is exactly what he said. Let's watch.

(Videotape, April 20, 2004)

President GEORGE W. BUSH: Now, by the way, anytime you hear the United States government talking about wire tap, it requires--a wire tap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so.

(End videotape)

MR. RUSSERT: Was that misleading?

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