Reporter defends release of NSA spy program

Mitchell: In the war against al-Qaida, how did the CIA get into the prison business?

Risen: Well, that's a great question that is still being, we're still trying to determine. I think the president made the determination early on that he was going to treat the war on terror as a national security issue rather than a law enforcement issue. I think he saw the Clinton administration dealt with terror as a law enforcement issue, and he didn't want to do that. So he wanted to make the military and the CIA the lead agencies on this, and put the Justice Department and the FBI in the background, at least at first. And that led the CIA to set up these secret detention facilities around the world, and begin conducting interrogations of al-Qaida leaders, and it was something the CIA hadn't done in the past, and it was an all-new business for them to get into.

Mitchell: Administration officials from the president on down, say the United States does not engage in torture. Is that true?

Risen: Torture is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. And it's a subjective thing. People inside the CIA that I've talked to believe that's what happened. Some of them believe that it is torture, others, would say no. So it's all a matter of what your own position on that is. I tend to think that if you are performing these harsh tactics on people over and over again, then that's abusive. So the question is, is it legally torture? I don't know. But it's something some people believe is.

Mitchell: And do you think the American people really care about that? About whether or not al-Qaida prisoners are being treated abusively?

Risen: I think the important thing is that we, as a country, have some values that we have to maintain. It's not really about whether or not, how we treat these people, it's more a reflection of ourselves, and so I think we have to think of it in those terms. How do we want to act in the world? And I think if we think about it in those terms, it's a different question than, you know, is it OK to just seek revenge against these guys?

Mitchell: You described the president and George Tenet, discussing the interrogation of a particularly important prisoner, Abu Zabida. You describe what the president said to Tenant. What does that say?

Risen: As I say in the book, there's some dispute about whether this conversation took place, but what I was told by one particularly good source was that in discussing Abu Zabaida, who had been wounded right after his capture, and was being given medical treatment, that the president asked Tenet who authorized putting him on pain medication? Now there are people close to Tenet who say they've never heard that story, and don't believe it, which is what I say in the book, but it raises the question about the signals that the president was sending to the CIA and the military, about the way in which people should be treated in prisons. And even without that conversation it was pretty clear that the president had told or made it clear to the CIA that the gloves were to come off now, in going after al-Qaida.

Mitchell: Do you have proof of that?

Risen: Well, I think he has all the public statements, in addition to anything in private. I think he has made it clear that he wanted a get tough policy on al-Qaida.

Mitchell: Would it surprise you to know that at least one source says that that conversation was between Dick Cheney and George Tenet?

Risen: I haven't heard that. That's interesting.

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